# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/281 "2012-04-17T21:31:38Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I think it would, but what this means is that Martin couldn’t be prosecuted for using deadly force against Zimmerman. So that concept doesn’t really apply to a dead kid. The point being that Z’man might not be able to successfully plea self defense if Martin was the one defending himself. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/282 "2012-04-17T21:36:19Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The point being that Z’man might not be able to successfully plea self defense if Martin was the one defending himself. There could be two people, each self-defending. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/283 "2012-04-17T22:22:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There could be two people, each self-defending. Haha, that’s hilarious! I’m trying to picture what 2 people self defending looks like. Do they just circle around each other with their arms up in defense? Wouldn’t they just cancel each other out then, I mean how would a fight even happen with 2 people self-defending. Where does the offense come from? How is there ever an attack? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/284 "2012-04-17T22:58:30Z")
Shared suicide by self-defense? Sure, it could happen, the US and the USSR nearly did it a bunch of times. Fear makes stupid, stupid makes dead. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/285 "2012-04-17T23:52:50Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Haha, that’s hilarious! I’m trying to picture what 2 people self defending looks like. If each one has a reasonable fear for his life, and neither has an easy way to escape. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/286 "2012-04-18T01:09:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There could be two people, each self-defending. Certainly both could percieve they are defending themselves. Z’man likley thought he was defending his neighborhood when he followed MArtin and profiled him, and got out to follow him. Whether the law will see it that way is another question. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/287 "2012-04-18T01:50:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If each one has a reasonable fear for his life, and neither has an easy way to escape. But to escape from what? Someone has to create a situation from which the other needs to escape right? How can both people feel like they need to escape from a defensive person? Again, where is the offense coming from? If the encounter escalates beyond the two person defense tango anyway. If there is an incident coming from the dual-defender scenario, the incident must come from someone at some point doing something offensive right? What triggers things? What causes a situation from which escape is necessitated? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/288 "2012-04-18T02:37:38Z")
The way the arrest was announced it sounded like it was made after testimony from Martin’s mother who identified her son’s screaming voice. Can’t find any quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/289 "2012-04-18T03:15:59Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > But to escape from what? Someone has to create a situation from which the other needs to escape right? How can both people feel like they need to escape from a defensive person? > > Again, where is the offense coming from? If the encounter escalates beyond the two person defense tango anyway. If there is an incident coming from the dual-defender scenario, the incident must come from someone at some point doing something offensive right? What triggers things? What causes a situation from which escape is necessitated? If at some moment in time you reasonably feel fear for life or grave bodily injury, and cannot reasonably escape, you can employ deadly force, no matter who the original offender is. And that goes for both parties. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/290 "2012-04-18T03:18:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Certainly both could percieve they are defending themselves. Z’man likley thought he was defending his neighborhood when he followed MArtin and profiled him, and got out to follow him. Whether the law will see it that way is another question. You are misinformed on the law then. Whether Zimmerman felt he was “defending his neighborhood” is immaterial to the legal question of whether his shooting Martin was self-defense or not. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/291 "2012-04-18T04:37:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You are misinformed on the law then. Whether Zimmerman felt he was “defending his neighborhood” is immaterial to the legal question of whether his shooting Martin was self-defense or not. Whew, then it’s lucky I didn’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/292 "2012-04-18T04:41:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If at some moment in time you reasonably feel fear for life or grave bodily injury, and cannot reasonably escape, you can employ deadly force, no matter who the original offender is. And that goes for both parties. So whomever survives is innocent? I’m pretty skeptical of this as fact or law. If someone brandishes a weapon or threatens someone else , and then they are attacked by someone defending themsleves from that threat, they are not justified in using deadly force. If that’s the law then it grants a license to anyone to create a confrontation, and then kill someone and claim self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/293 "2012-04-18T05:31:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > So whomever survives is innocent? > I’m pretty skeptical of this as fact or law. > If someone brandishes a weapon or threatens someone else , and then they are attacked by someone defending themsleves from that threat, they are not justified in using deadly force. According to Florida law, if they have reasonable fear for their life, yes, they are. The law has only been cited a few dozen times in this and other threads. Take a look. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/294 "2012-04-18T10:29:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If someone brandishes a weapon or threatens someone else , and then they are attacked by someone defending themsleves from that threat, they are not justified in using deadly force. Hence the name, the “Shoot First” law. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/295 "2012-04-18T13:25:59Z")
Yeah, it almost seems like this law discourages being defensive and instead encourages you to just shoot first to make sure that you get to tell the story. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/296 "2012-04-18T14:19:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > According to Florida law, if they have reasonable fear for their life, yes, they are. The law has only been cited a few dozen times in this and other threads. Take a look. I’m no legal expert but there’s this, > [@](#): > > 776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: > > (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or > > (2)  **Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself,** unless: > > ``` > (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that **he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger** other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or > (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and **indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force** , but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. > > ``` I think the argument can be made, and likely will be made that Z’man was the aggressor and failed to use reasonable means to withdraw or end the conflict before using deadly force ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/297 "2012-04-18T14:51:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think the argument can be made, and likely will be made that Z’man was the aggressor and failed to use reasonable means to withdraw or end the conflict before using deadly force it is hard to escape with someone sitting on you beating you up. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/298 "2012-04-18T15:13:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > it is hard to escape with someone sitting on you beating you up. If you can scream for help you can say “I’ve had enough, You win, I surrender” ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/299 "2012-04-18T15:45:33Z")
> [@blinkie](#): > > Black kills white + stand your ground = INSTANT ARREST That is incorrect. If you look at this article you will see that Trevor Dooley wasn’t arrested until the two days later after there was a lot of media attention. [http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/bus-driver-charged-with-manslaughter-in-fatal-shooting-on-valrico/1124587](http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/bus-driver-charged-with-manslaughter-in-fatal-shooting-on-valrico/1124587) Apparently some people were upset that Dooley was driving his school bus the next day. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/300 "2012-04-18T16:52:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If you can scream for help you can say “I’ve had enough, You win, I surrender” … and then a referee, striped uniform, white gloves, will come out and stop the fight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=16)