# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/301 "2012-04-18T17:01:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > it is hard to escape with someone sitting on you beating you up. Argument police, pull over. You cannot use something that hasn’t been proven to prove something else that hasn’t been proven. That’s called “buggering the question”. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/302 "2012-04-18T17:03:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … and then a referee, striped uniform, white gloves, will come out and stop the fight. Well if the other person is just defending himself as well, then once he realizes that the first person is just being defensive, everything should just stop, no? Why does every interaction have to be a Mexican standoff with someone (or everyone for that matter) getting shot? Everyone being allowed to carry guns, and everyone being allowed to shoot each other just because they fear that they might be in danger, would lead to lots and lots of death by defense with no offense, right? How do you not see the problem with this scenario? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/303 "2012-04-18T17:08:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Argument police, pull over. You cannot use something that hasn’t been proven to prove something else that hasn’t been proven. That’s called “buggering the question”. No. Look at the section in the law that the argument was related to. There are two parts: one being reasonable belief in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and the other is exchausting every reasonable means to escape such danger. Since \*\*cosmosdan \*\*didn’t object to the “reasonable belief” part, he stipulated the fact of Martin sitting on top of Zimmerman beating him up for the sake of his argument. So I pointed out that once you do stipulate that, the escape clause is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/304 "2012-04-18T17:15:11Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Well if the other person is just defending himself as well, then once he realizes that the first person is just being defensive, everything should just stop, no? Because every fight and every person involved in it are cool and rational. > [@](#): > > Why does every interaction have to be a Mexican standoff with someone (or everyone for that matter) getting shot? “Every”? > [@](#): > > Everyone being allowed to carry guns, and everyone being allowed to shoot each other just because they fear that they might be in danger, would lead to lots and lots of death by defense with no offense, right? > > How do you not see the problem with this scenario? And yet crime rates in Florida (including homicide rates) dropped since 2005 - when SYG was introduced. Impossible to say whether SYG played any role in that, but impossible to say it didn’t, either. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/305 "2012-04-18T17:19:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Every”? Every interaction between two people just defending themselves. You don’t seem to leave room for anything other than one of them shooting the other. Can you think of another way out then? > [@Terr](#): > > And yet crime rates in Florida (including homicide rates) dropped since 2005 - when SYG was introduced. Impossible to say whether SYG played any role in that, but impossible to say it didn’t, either. Well that’s cool. If you want to live in the old west, that’s ok, but I’m glad I live in a different kind of state. To each their own I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/306 "2012-04-18T17:24:07Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Every interaction between two people just defending themselves. You don’t seem to leave room for anything other than one of them shooting the other. Can you think of another way out then? Sure. But once it gets to the point where one party has reasonable belief in imminent danger of death, deadly force is allowed to be used. It is not required that it is used. But it is allowed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/307 "2012-04-18T17:25:26Z")
Homicides deemed “justifiable” are not included in crime statistics, since they are not crimes. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/308 "2012-04-18T17:25:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure. But once it gets to the point where one party has reasonable belief in imminent danger of death, deadly force is allowed to be used. Yes but how did either one get to the point of believing they are in imminent danger if they are both defending themselves. Can you just admit that someone has to make an offensive move to make that happen? How else is either party going to feel danger if they are both being defensive? How does it switch to the imminent danger of death scenario without one of the parties doing something offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/309 "2012-04-18T17:33:43Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yes but how did either one get to the point of believing they are in imminent danger if they are both defending themselves. Can you just admit that someone has to make an offensive move to make that happen? Of course. Either Martin or Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation. > [@](#): > > How else is either party going to feel danger if they are both being defensive? How does it switch to the imminent danger of death scenario without one of the parties doing something offensive? The law covers the aggressor as well. See the excerpt that \*\*cosmosdan \*\*posted above. By the way - to all those who claim that Zimmerman wasn’t arrested because he was “white”, and a black shooter would have been arrested on the spot: [http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981257118](http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981257118) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/310 "2012-04-18T17:38:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Homicides deemed “justifiable” are not included in crime statistics, since they are not crimes. Yes? Yes. Here is a good graphic: [http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/4/5/1333636517549/Justifiable-homicides-cha-001.jpg](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/4/5/1333636517549/Justifiable-homicides-cha-001.jpg) Do you see much difference between states with SYG and without? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/311 "2012-04-18T17:51:25Z")
> **[‘Stand Your Ground’ laws coincide with jump in justifiable-homicide cases](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/stand-your-ground-laws-coincide-with-jump-in-justifiable-homicide-cases/2012/04/07/gIQAS2v51S_story.html)** > > This sharp turn in American law began in Florida in 2005 and has spread to more than 30 other states. **Stand Your Ground laws coincide with jump in justifiable-homicide cases** Comment? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/312 "2012-04-18T17:54:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/stand-your-ground-laws-coincide-with-jump-in-justifiable-homicide-cases/2012/04/07/gIQAS2v51S\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/stand-your-ground-laws-coincide-with-jump-in-justifiable-homicide-cases/2012/04/07/gIQAS2v51S_story.html) > > **Stand Your Ground laws coincide with jump in justifiable-homicide cases** > > Comment? In some states. In some states they coincide with a drop. Did you see that graphic I showed you a couple of posts earlier? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/313 "2012-04-18T19:04:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In some states. In some states they coincide with a drop. Did you see that graphic I showed you a couple of posts earlier? I would go with the Guardian article that Terr mentioned. It appears to be better reasearched. [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/05/jusifiable-homicides-guns-data-analysis#](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/05/jusifiable-homicides-guns-data-analysis#) The Washington Post article seems a lot sloppier. the Kuch case seems to fall under earlier castle doctrine. They also didn’t make a good case using a Dooley case. > [@](#): > > Trevor Dooley turned away, saying, “I’m not here to fight with you.” > > “Don’t walk away from me,” James said. “I’m not done with you yet.” > > Seconds later, James was on top of Dooley, according to testimony at a court hearing. During the scuffle, Dooley reached into his right front pants pocket, pulled out his handgun and fired into James’s chest. This makes James look like the aggressor, who assaulted an elderly black man. Also this part from the article is a little disturbing: > [@](#): > > In the five years before the law’s passage, Florida prosecutors declared “justifiable” an average of 12 killings by private citizens each year. (Most justifiable killings are committed by police officers; those cases, which have also tripled, are not included in these statistics.) But in the five years after the law passed, that number spiked to an average of 36 justifiable killings per year. The statistic that justified killing by police also tripled makes it sound like the increase sound like independent of the law change. Both articles lack some background. If you have over 50 murders per million, then an increase in justifiable homocide of 1 per million sounds more like noise. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/314 "2012-04-19T00:50:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … and then a referee, striped uniform, white gloves, will come out and stop the fight. Sarcasm is not really addressing the law as written is it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/315 "2012-04-20T17:32:20Z")
The intertubes are all atwitter about photos that “prove Zimmerman was attacked”. Well, here you go! [![](https://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg) ](https://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg) Don’t know what to make of this, there is blood, but no apparent injury, and a very oddly precise “border”. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/316 "2012-04-20T17:59:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The intertubes are all atwitter about photos that “prove Zimmerman was attacked”. Well, here you go! > > [http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht\_george\_zimmerman\_head\_dm\_120419\_wmain.jpg](http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg) > > Don’t know what to make of this, there is blood, but no apparent injury, and a very oddly precise “border”. I thought that the injury on the left was peculiar too but I’m no expert on head trauma. **Maybe** it came from striking the edge of the sidewalk? The injury on the right appears to be in about the same position as the knot on the head from the “enhanced” photos. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/317 "2012-04-20T18:02:00Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I thought that the injury on the left was peculiar too but I’m no expert on head trauma. **Maybe** it came from striking the edge of the sidewalk? The eyewitness to the scuffle said they were never near the sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/318 "2012-04-20T20:02:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The intertubes are all atwitter about photos that “prove Zimmerman was attacked”. Well, here you go! > > [http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht\_george\_zimmerman\_head\_dm\_120419\_wmain.jpg](http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg) > > Don’t know what to make of this, there is blood, but no apparent injury, and a very oddly precise “border”. Evidently it was taken with an Iphone by someone who came out after the shot. The embedded data shows it was taken at that time. After reading the police report I believed Z’man had blood on him. It doesn’t look like heavy bleeding or serious wounds. Z’man also was released on bail, > **[Judge Grants George Zimmerman Bail](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175)** > > Judge Grants George Zimmerman Bail > [@](#): > > “I wanted to say that I am sorry for the loss of your son,” Zimmerman said, adding that he did not know how old Martin was or that he was unarmed. Well, you told the police late teens, so you kinda did know. Why would you suspect this young man was armed , and if you did, why would you get out of your car to follow him? Then there’s this, > [@](#): > > But Gilbreath also described previously undisclosed evidence the state plans to present at Zimmerman’s trial, while under questioning from Rionda, the assistant prosecutor. > > Gilbreath testified that Zimmerman repeatedly contradicted himself while being interviewed by police and provided statements inconsistent with physical evidence and witness recollections. > > Prosecutors have also located a witness near the site of the shooting who described seeing the shadows of two men pass by her home, one chasing the other, immediately before Martin was killed. The pursuit, in the direction of Martin’s home, indicates that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, Gilbreath said, under questioning from Rionda. We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/319 "2012-04-20T20:04:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The eyewitness to the scuffle said they were never near the sidewalk. There was no eyewitness that saw the scuffle from beginning to end was there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/320 "2012-04-20T20:13:01Z")
To be ruthlessly fair, I wouldn’t put much stock in changes of storyline, unless there is some definite evidence of studied deception. People are not good memory machines, we just think we are. This is especially true under times of stress. Now, to construct a hypothetical (and _only_ hypothetical), if he said he had been beaten against the sidewalk, and someone said there was no blood on the sidewalk, and he instantly remembered it was on the grass, then yeah, that would be suspicious. Memory is the least reliable form of evidence, either way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=17)