# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/361 "2012-04-22T00:57:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I would like to know if the police took forensic samples to test whose blood it is. It’s far-fetched, but earlier descriptions from the police report made me wonder what if Zimmerman had Martin’s blood on his face (blown-back from the close-range shot), and then inadvertently transferred blood to the back of his head with his hands. Of course, that’s not consistent with that picture. Too much blood. But what is the providence of this picture? The photographer was not affiliated with the police or the paramedics, right? And the police were on the scene very very quickly, like two minutes after the gunshot noise. So why was Zimmerman allowed to be interacting with this random witness? How long did it take the first responders to get control of the scene? And why would a neighbor happening upon this event, with a person with a fresh gunshot wound lying on the ground, and police with flashlights moving in, snap a picture of Zimmerman’s bleeding head? Whose idea was it? The photographer’s? If I come across someone with a bloody head wound, I offer first aid, not a photoshoot. Zimmerman’s? Three minutes after he pulled the trigger, still bleeding himself, Zimmerman wants to document the back of his head? Is the witness a friend or acquaintance of Zimmerman’s? They have to know each other–otherwise, when Zimmerman said “Call my wife,” the other person wouldn’t have asked “What should I tell her?” He would have asked “What’s her number?” None of this story makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/362 "2012-04-22T01:02:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, here’s my legal response. So? I was asking about a continuous head beating. If Zimmerman was punched and had his head slammed than Martin didn’t just smash his head which was the scariest part. So, it doesn’t bother you that Zimmerman blatantly lied to the police? :dubious: A jury won’t see it that way. > [@](#): > > His wounds are consistent with his story. Bullshit. His injuries aren’t remotely consistent with the claim that for nearly a full minute Trayvon Martin slammed his head into a concrete sidewalk and punched him in the face. > [@](#): > > His face was bruised and his head was bleeding from behind. Bullshit again. Show me a picture or medical evidence that “his face was bruised”. He certainly doesn’t have any noticeable bruises on his face 35 minutes after this supposed beat-down. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/363 "2012-04-22T01:04:12Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > They do. Medical reports indicate he had some head injuries. What medical reports? I don’t think any have been released yet. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/364 "2012-04-22T01:07:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, it doesn’t bother you that Zimmerman blatantly lied to the police? :dubious: What lie? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/365 "2012-04-22T01:09:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Bullshit again. Show me a picture or medical evidence that “his face was bruised”. > > He certainly doesn’t have any noticeable bruises on his face 35 minutes after this supposed beat-down. Bruises look worse over time and witnesses said they saw him bruised the next day. All that will come out in court. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/366 "2012-04-22T01:27:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What lie? Well, either he lied to the police or lied on the stand. His police statement is that he thought Martin was a teen. His testimony is that he thought he was wrong about the guy’s age, which he wasn’t, and that he thought he almost the same age as himself. This is clearly someone trying to justify a bad action to others and possibly even himself. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/367 "2012-04-22T01:28:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > He certainly doesn’t have any noticeable bruises on his face 35 minutes after this supposed beat-down. Also, according to the police report, he had facial and back head injuries. Again, consistent with his story. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/368 "2012-04-22T01:36:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Well, either he lied to the police or lied on the stand. His police statement is that he thought Martin was a teen. His testimony is that he thought he was wrong about the guy’s age, which he wasn’t, and that he thought he almost the same age as himself. What difference does it make to his age guessing skills? How is that material to the case? > [@BigT](#): > > This is clearly someone trying to justify a bad action to others and possibly even himself. Zimmerman can be justified in defending himself and still feel bad that Martin is dead. Teenagers do stupid things. We had an incident in my city where a bunch of “kids” tried to break into a house and the owner told them he had a gun. They threw a cinder block threw his door and he threw a tiny piece of lead back at them at high velocity. One of them assumed ambient temperature. If Zimmerman’s story is true then Martin thought he was entitled to beat someone’s head into the cement. He wasn’t. If Zimmerman’s story is true, Martin died as a direct result of his behavior. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/369 "2012-04-22T01:51:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What difference does it make to his age guessing skills? How is that material to the case? It’s not. What is relevant and quite curious is that in February Zimmerman guessed Martin to be in his late teens. Now he says he had no idea that Martin was actually in his late teens. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/370 "2012-04-22T01:54:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What lie? That Martin slammed his head onto a concrete pavement for a full minute. That’s clearly a lie not supported by the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/371 "2012-04-22T02:09:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That Martin slammed his head onto a concrete pavement for a full minute. > > That’s clearly a lie not supported by the evidence. :rolleyes: all his statement conveys is that he was in a fight, it was brief and it involved being punched in the face and his head was slammed into the cement. Any attempt to tie it to an exact time frame beyond “brief” for the purposes of saying it’s a lie is going to get shredded in court. We know the fight was brief both from his own testimony and that of the people living nearby. That’s all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/372 "2012-04-22T02:12:03Z")
About that whole “cement” thing. You keep saying that as if it were a proven fact. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/373 "2012-04-22T02:26:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > About that whole “cement” thing. You keep saying that as if it were a proven fact. Cite? Zimmerman’s wounds and the location of the body which was[astride the sidewalk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGaNK8hN0tA) per his father’s recount of what the police told him. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/374 "2012-04-22T02:29:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Zimmerman’s wounds and the location of the body which was[astride the sidewalk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGaNK8hN0tA) per his father’s recount of what the police told him. His father is not a witness. He is just regurgitating Zimmerman’s self-serving story. Most of his father’s account conflicts with other parts of his own story. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/375 "2012-04-22T02:36:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What difference does it make to his age guessing skills? How is that material to the case? > Zimmerman can be justified in defending himself and still feel bad that Martin is dead. Teenagers do stupid things. > > We had an incident in my city where a bunch of “kids” tried to break into a house and the owner told them he had a gun. They threw a cinder block threw his door and he threw a tiny piece of lead back at them at high velocity. One of them assumed ambient temperature. If Zimmerman’s story is true then Martin thought he was entitled to beat someone’s head into the cement. He wasn’t. If Zimmerman’s story is true, Martin died as a direct result of his behavior. Martin was entiteled to defend himself from a stranger with a gun, and that might entail beating his head in the cement. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/376 "2012-04-22T02:59:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > :rolleyes: all his statement conveys is that he was in a fight, it was brief and it involved being punched in the face and his head was slammed into the cement. Any attempt to tie it to an exact time frame beyond “brief” for the purposes of saying it’s a lie is going to get shredded in court. I have to admit that I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. I’m sorry but the above statement is almost as stupid as claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people. You really ought to do better research before rather foolishly making claims like that. If Zimmerman’s account of the encounter to the police was correct then for nearly a full minute Trayvon Martin punched him in the face and slammed his head into the concrete. I’m sure you’ve read about what Zimmerman told police which was broken by Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel a few weeks ago and trumpeted by the people desperate to defend Zimmerman. She went on MSNBC and provided the report on the case that had been leaked to her by police who were desperate damage the case against Zimmerman and wash away the scandal their department faced. Moneyquote: > [@](#): > > Rene Stutzman: “If you believe George Zimmerman’s account to police, he was on the ground for a minute getting beat up for a minute.” [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKD4-d0skc&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKD4-d0skc&feature=related) Furthermore, George Zimmerman’s father has taken up this story and insisted that according to his son he was beaten up for a full minute by Martin. [http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/) > [@](#): > > In an exclusive interview with myFOXorlando, Robert Zimmerman detailed his son’s account of the night, claiming Martin beat his son for over a minute and told him something along the lines of, “You’re going to die tonight.” > > Read more: [http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/#ixzz1sjafDIkp](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/#ixzz1sjafDIkp) People will notice the above is from Foxnews, not exactly bleeding-heart liberals. That said, thanks for conceding that Robert Zimmerman’s claim that his son was beaten for over a minute and his son’s account to police that he was beaten for a minute was complete bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/377 "2012-04-22T03:08:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Zimmerman is trying to keep a visual contact of Martin for the police who are on their way. Martin takes off running. Zimmerman continues following him. Witness sees people running by. > > We know the 2 met at some point and no crime has been committed up to this point. Beating someone’s head into the cement is a crime. That is the story Zimmerman gave and his wounds and eye witness accounts line up with it. He was questioned extensively for hours after that so any major changes to his story would have to be concocted and stuck to all through the questioning. That’s why they spend so much time going over the same thing repeatedly, to catch the person in a major discrepancy. Little discrepancies aren’t going to matter. What will matter is how consistent the story is from first interview at the scene and 5 hrs later. Maybe. I’m thinking that the prosecutors argument may be that since Z’,am clearly profiled Martin, and then followed him , even leaving his car, armed. That may make him the aggressor in iteself. That would be especially true if he followed Martin after the dispatcher advised him not to. If he aggressively questioned Martin, or in any way tried to detain him, then he is the aggressor and Martin’s response is self defense. You don’t get to provoke a fight , and then shoor someone when you’re losing and claim self defense. That’s where I think the details will matter. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/378 "2012-04-22T03:13:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If he aggressively questioned Martin, or in any way tried to detain him, then he is the aggressor and Martin’s response is self defense. You don’t get to provoke a fight , and then shoor someone when you’re losing and claim self defense. 1. There is no evidence that the State has, as per the investigator’s testimony under oath, that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin. 2. Yes, under the SYG law, if you provoke a fight, and then you’re losing it, and at some point have a reasonable fear for your life and cannot reasonably escape, you are entitled to use deadly force. Do you need the reference to that portion of the law yet again? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/379 "2012-04-22T03:17:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, it doesn’t bother you that Zimmerman blatantly lied to the police? :dubious: > > A jury won’t see it that way. > > Bullshit. His injuries aren’t remotely consistent with the claim that for nearly a full minute Trayvon Martin slammed his head into a concrete sidewalk and punched him in the face. > > Bullshit again. Show me a picture or medical evidence that “his face was bruised”. > > He certainly doesn’t have any noticeable bruises on his face 35 minutes after this supposed beat-down. In one 911 call you can hear someone screaming for help in absolute terror for a full 40 seconds before the shot. That doesn’t account for whatever they heard before the call. That said, A struggle doesn’t mean Martin was slamming his head into the ground or punching him in the face for a full minute. It says NOTHING, about how many blows were struck or how effective they were and damaging they were. Z’man’s terro IMO comes from the sudden knowledge that he is being overpowered by someone he saw as a criminal. I wouldn’t be surprised if Martin was trying to disarm him. The Huffpo like Im posted earlier said the investagator acknoweldged Z’man had head lacerations and they didn’t know who threw the forst punch , but there were other inconsistancies. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/380 "2012-04-22T03:30:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 1. There is no evidence that the State has, as per the investigator’s testimony under oath, that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin. agreed. They said they had they had some contradictions in his story. > [@](#): > > 1. Yes, under the SYG law, if you provoke a fight, and then you’re losing it, and at some point have a reasonable fear for your life and cannot reasonably escape, you are entitled to use deadly force. Do you need the reference to that portion of the law yet again? Yes, you added more qualifiers. I believe I pointed out that under the SYG law if you provoke a fight you’re obliged to try and communicate to that person that you don’t want to fight before using deadly force. Isn’t that how it reads? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=20)