# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/381 "2012-04-22T03:45:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Yes, you added more qualifiers. I believe I pointed out that under the SYG law if you provoke a fight you’re obliged to try and communicate to that person that you don’t want to fight before using deadly force. > Isn’t that how it reads? No. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/382 "2012-04-22T03:57:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > His father is not a witness. He is just regurgitating Zimmerman’s self-serving story. Most of his father’s account conflicts with other parts of his own story. No, MARTIN’S father was regurgitating what the police told him. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/383 "2012-04-22T04:04:33Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Maybe. I’m thinking that the prosecutors argument may be that since Z’,am clearly profiled Martin, and then followed him , even leaving his car, armed. That may make him the aggressor in iteself. That would be especially true if he followed Martin after the dispatcher advised him not to. > > If he aggressively questioned Martin, or in any way tried to detain him, then he is the aggressor and Martin’s response is self defense. You don’t get to provoke a fight , and then shoor someone when you’re losing and claim self defense. > > That’s where I think the details will matter. Aggressively question Martin? what does that mean? I can ask you questions on the street until hell freezes over and it’s not illegal. Detain… hell yes that’s illegal. provoking a confrontation requires evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/384 "2012-04-22T04:06:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have to admit that I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. I’m sorry but the above statement is almost as stupid as claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people. > > You really ought to do better research before rather foolishly making claims like that. > > If Zimmerman’s account of the encounter to the police was correct then for nearly a full minute Trayvon Martin punched him in the face and slammed his head into the concrete. > > I’m sure you’ve read about what Zimmerman told police which was broken by Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel a few weeks ago and trumpeted by the people desperate to defend Zimmerman. > > She went on MSNBC and provided the report on the case that had been leaked to her by police who were desperate damage the case against Zimmerman and wash away the scandal their department faced. > > Moneyquote: > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKD4-d0skc&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKD4-d0skc&feature=related) > > Furthermore, George Zimmerman’s father has taken up this story and insisted that according to his son he was beaten up for a full minute by Martin. > > [http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/) > People will notice the above is from Foxnews, not exactly bleeding-heart liberals. > > That said, thanks for conceding that Robert Zimmerman’s claim that his son was beaten for over a minute and his son’s account to police that he was beaten for a minute was complete bullshit. Where in any of this mismash is an inconsistency? Do you think Zimmerman had a stopwatch going during the fight? Oh, and please keep your racist bullshit to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/385 "2012-04-22T04:08:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > In one 911 call you can hear someone screaming for help in absolute terror for a full 40 seconds before the shot. That doesn’t account for whatever they heard before the call. > That said, A struggle doesn’t mean Martin was slamming his head into the ground or punching him in the face for a full minute. It says NOTHING, about how many blows were struck or how effective they were and damaging they were. > Z’man’s terro IMO comes from the sudden knowledge that he is being overpowered by someone he saw as a criminal. I wouldn’t be surprised if Martin was trying to disarm him. > > The Huffpo like Im posted earlier said the investagator acknoweldged Z’man had head lacerations and they didn’t know who threw the forst punch , but there were other inconsistancies. Except that as I showed, according to Zimmerman, for a full minute Trayvon was beating on him and he’d been beaten so badly he was barely conscious when he moved his head from the concrete Martin was slamming his head upon when he shot Martin and that he knew just as he move his head away from the pavement and shot Martin that had he taken one more hit he’d be getting fed through a straw by his brother for the rest of his life. That account is clearly a lie as are other claims he’s made about the killing of Martin.. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/386 "2012-04-22T04:15:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except that as I showed, according to Zimmerman, for a full minute Trayvon was beating on him and he’d been beaten so badly he was barely conscious when he moved his head from the concrete Martin was slamming his head upon when he shot Martin and that he knew just as he move his head away from the pavement and shot Martin that had he taken one more hit he’d be getting fed through a straw by his brother for the rest of his life. > > That account is clearly a lie as are other claims he’s made about the killing of Martin.. OK… the court calls expert street fighter Ibn Warraq to the stand. Please state for the jury your estimate as to the number of times a person gets his head slammed into the concrete before a fear of impending death occurs. Please understand that during the course of the beating the person’s face was struck as has been earlier noted by police so it won’t be continuous head slamming but a series of beatings of the face and head. keep in mind the only testimony that counts is Zimmerman’s report to the police and not second hand accounts of his family. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/387 "2012-04-22T04:27:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Where in any of this mismash is an inconsistency? Do you think Zimmerman had a stopwatch going during the fight? Oh, and please keep your racist bullshit to yourself. That’s an extremely stupid statement. I’m merely pointing out that according to his account to police Trayvon Martin punched him in the face repeatedly and slammed his head into the ground for a full minute. Also please explain what I said that was “racist” because I nearly spit beer all over my keyboard laughing at that charge. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/388 "2012-04-22T04:39:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s an extremely stupid statement. > > I’m merely pointing out that according to his account to police Trayvon Martin punched him in the face repeatedly and slammed his head into the ground for a full minute. > > Also please explain what I said that was “racist” because I nearly spit beer all over my keyboard laughing at that charge. > > Thanks What exactly do you disagree with with the 1 minute fight? too long, too short… what? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/389 "2012-04-22T04:54:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What exactly do you disagree with with the 1 minute fight? too long, too short… what? Er… You apparently disagree that Trayvon Martin punched him in the face while on top of him and slamming his head into the ground for a full mintute, or am I misreading you? Beyond that, you stupidly claimed that I was guilty of “racist bullshit”. Please show me where I made racist comments. I’m not one of those racist morons who claims blacks are less intelligent than whites so please provide evidence for your asinine charge. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/390 "2012-04-22T05:00:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… You apparently disagree that Trayvon Martin punched him in the face while on top of him and slamming his head into the ground for a full mintute, or am I misreading you? The fight lasted for about a minute. That’s according to the 911 recordings’ cries for help etc. And that, according to the Sentinel journalist in the youtube video you linked to, is what Zimmerman said - that the fight lasted about a minute. How much of the fight was “punching in the face” and “slamming head into the ground” is unknown. Maybe Zimmerman during his interrogation quantified that. But you have no idea whether he did, and if he did, what he said. And I would be very surprised if someone in a fight counted seconds to figure out duration of things. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/391 "2012-04-22T05:15:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… You apparently disagree that Trayvon Martin punched him in the face while on top of him and slamming his head into the ground for a full mintute, or am I misreading you? What Terr said. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, you stupidly claimed that I was guilty of “racist bullshit”. you compared what I said to the stupidity of claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people. Please leave any veiled racist thoughts, comparisons, claims or or any other mention out of comments directed to me. Your statement was stupid and had nothing to do with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/392 "2012-04-22T05:23:22Z")
So, then, the only evidence that there was any cranial-concrete intercourse during this incident is the testimony of the accused? That is the sole source for the “fact” that Martin was beating Zimmerman’s head into the concrete. That’s it? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/393 "2012-04-22T06:33:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > you compared what I said to the stupidity of claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people. Please leave any veiled racist thoughts, comparisons, claims or or any other mention out of comments directed to me. Your statement was stupid and had nothing to do with this thread. Er…You accused me of engaging in “racist bullshit”. Pleas tell me what I said consisted of “racist bullshit”. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/394 "2012-04-22T08:06:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er…You accused me of engaging in “racist bullshit”. > > Pleas tell me what I said consisted of “racist bullshit”. > Thanks you compared what I said to the stupidity of claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/395 "2012-04-22T08:10:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, then, the only evidence that there was any cranial-concrete intercourse during this incident is the testimony of the accused? That is the sole source for the “fact” that Martin was beating Zimmerman’s head into the concrete. That’s it? Seriously? You mean besides the police report of his injuries and the pictures? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/396 "2012-04-22T12:10:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. Do you need the reference to that portion of the law yet again? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/397 "2012-04-22T13:02:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Aggressively question Martin? what does that mean? I can ask you questions on the street until hell freezes over and it’s not illegal. Detain… hell yes that’s illegal. It’s the difference between asking politely and explaining who you are and why you have questions and making demands as if you have authority to question someone. It’s about tone and volume and body language. If I was minding my own business and someone started following me and I asked them “Why are you following me” and thier response was “What are you doing here” as Martins GF reported , I might be inclined to ask who they are and what gives them the right to question me at all. Although it’s not illiegal to question someone Z’man had no authority, and no reasonable expectation for an answer, unless his appraoch was offered politely and with an explanation. Honestly, you’re walking home from the store to the home of a friend you are visiting and some stranger who had been eyeballing you demands. “What are you doing here?” Would you explain, or question why they’re asking, tell them to mind thier own dam business and kindly piss off? I don’t believe Martin punched Z’man out of nowhere, although I admit it’s possible, and I’m wondering what happened to turn a conversation into a fight and then a shooting. We see from Z’man’s call that he presumed Martin was one of the “assholes that always get away” and I think it’s reasonable to think that attitude carried into thier verbal confrontation. From aarticles I read, Z’man took his role as NW pretty seriously. He had constantly mentioned “young black males” in his emails, and his friend/defender mentioned it again on TV. 8 break ins, blaming them all on young black males. At least one of Z’man’s neighbors had complained about him overstepping his authority in NW and following and questioning people. They supposedly called the SPD to lodge a complaint which may be on record. In another article a former co-worker at a security job described Z’man a Jeckyl and Hyde, and that he could become enraged when his intructions weren’t follwed , which eventually cost him that job IMO, the 911 call , the reports of a shouting argument prior to the struggle, and these other bits of information , might speak to why the verbal confrontation became physical. > [@](#): > > provoking a confrontation requires evidence. True, and we may never know how the conversation became a fight. The prosecutor claims they have evidence that will come out in the trial, so we shall see what it is and how convincing it is. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/398 "2012-04-22T13:10:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except that as I showed, according to Zimmerman, for a full minute Trayvon was beating on him and he’d been beaten so badly he was barely conscious when he moved his head from the concrete Martin was slamming his head upon when he shot Martin and that he knew just as he move his head away from the pavement and shot Martin that had he taken one more hit he’d be getting fed through a straw by his brother for the rest of his life. > > That account is clearly a lie as are other claims he’s made about the killing of Martin.. I’m not sure what’s diffacult about this. Yes, there was a struggle for about a minute , but nothing indicates that entire minute was spent with Martin bashing Z’man’s head on the pavement and punching him in the face. How many punches were thrown? How many times was his head banged on the sidewalk? Was there any wrestling involved? Was Z’man blocking some of the blows with his arms? You don’t know any of these details so the point you’re trying to make isn’t based in facts. It’s based in your speculation about the minute of struggle. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/399 "2012-04-22T13:37:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Bullshit. His injuries aren’t remotely consistent with the claim that for nearly a full minute Trayvon Martin slammed his head into a concrete sidewalk and punched him in the face. It isn’t consistent, but it isn’t what Zimmerman said. He only mentioned getting smacked on concrete **once**. He managed to move his head over to the grass and the rest happened on the grass. The only statement I can find from police sources says in the Orlando Sentinel. > [@](#): > > With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel. If Zimmerman hadn’t moved his head on to the grass, then we would be having a completely different discussion, since we would be trying Martin for Zimmerman’s murder. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/400 "2012-04-22T13:55:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If Zimmerman’s account of the encounter to the police was correct then for nearly a full minute Trayvon Martin punched him in the face and slammed his head into the concrete. Do you have a link to a transcript (or video) of George Zimmerman claiming that Martin beat his head against the ground for nearly a full minute? Thanks in advance. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=21)