# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/421 "2012-04-23T20:33:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Blood on the concrete? Well, yes, sure, but its like hearing someone claim a unicorn gored him up the butt, and asking to see the brown residue on the horn. There are those who say the blood is staged. Thus, if it was, I sincerely doubt those staging the blood have the forensic knowledge to apply a pattern that is accurate to the injury based on the event staged. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/422 "2012-04-23T21:05:54Z")
Its probably escaped your notice, since I’ve only said it about ten times: the only evidence we have of any head impacting any concrete is Zimmerman’s say-so. The fact that this is repeated by others does not lend it any substance. It remains as it was, his word alone. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/423 "2012-04-23T21:28:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes. We have not seen the EMT report yet. Or the autopsy report. I’ll be struggling to understand how one can repeatedly smash an uncooperative person’s head on concrete without injury to one’s fingers. Of course now that we’ve reduced the number of skull injuries to two, one of which could be explained by falling, and striking one’s head on the sidewalk, after being punched in the nose. The other appearing to be a deep scratch or minor cut given the amount of blood and actual appearance of the wound, the kind of wound that would be associated more with the moving of one’s own head over an rough surface . . . I’m struggling even more. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/424 "2012-04-23T21:34:54Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’ll be struggling to understand how one can repeatedly smash an uncooperative person’s head on concrete without injury to one’s fingers. By grabbing his neck, or ears, or the shirt at the shoulders, or pushing down repeatedly on his forehead. Try it. Lie face-up on the ground. In most individuals, there is space between the back of the neck, and the ground, into which the fingers can fit without being compressed against the ground. Not particularly difficult. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/425 "2012-04-23T22:05:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > These wounds, they were documented by whom? The police who were already en-route and would have been on the scene quickly. And the photograph, by the neighbor who was at the scene. And by the EMT’s who treated him at the scene. The police and EMT’s will either verify the picture for it’s accuracy or reject. > [@elucidator](#): > > I think the prosecution in this case is trying to think of excuses to get out of this political shitstorm. Even if they are one hundred percent ethical and scrupulous, somebody’s going to think they’re lying, and will never vote for them again. > > I think they will bargain. I think they will show the defense all their evidence, and plea-bargain down to something like manslaughter. Along with a threat of ninety-nine to life in the Huey Newton wing of the Stateville Prison. The prosecution can’t “get out” of this political situation. That ship has sailed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/426 "2012-04-23T22:42:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The police who were already en-route and would have been on the scene quickly. And the photograph, by the neighbor who was at the scene. And by the EMT’s who treated him at the scene. The police and EMT’s will either verify the picture for it’s accuracy or reject… So, if they truly existed, they may very well have been documented. That is not quite the same thing as you repeatedly suggest, that they have _already been_ documented, and such documentation is available. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/427 "2012-04-23T22:43:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …The prosecution can’t “get out” of this political situation. That ship has sailed. Never underestimate the ingenuity of the political animal. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/428 "2012-04-23T23:08:56Z")
If Zimmerman were beaten by Martin and their neighbour had the foresight to take a picture before it were\* cleaned and treated at the scene, shouldn’t the police have had similar foresight? - Is the second clause subjunctive too? It sounds awkward. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/429 "2012-04-23T23:13:46Z")
Fucking English majors. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/430 "2012-04-24T05:11:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Fucking English majors. Sounded like coons to me. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/431 "2012-04-24T11:02:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its probably escaped your notice, since I’ve only said it about ten times: the only evidence we have of any head impacting any concrete is Zimmerman’s say-so. The fact that this is repeated by others does not lend it any substance. It remains as it was, his word alone. Likewise, the only evidence we have that Zimmerman shot Martin is Zimmerman’s say-so. If one Zimmerman say-so is disbelieved, shouldn’t the other Zimmerman say-so also be disbelieved? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/432 "2012-04-24T11:13:40Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Likewise, the only evidence we have that Zimmerman shot Martin is Zimmerman’s say-so. If one Zimmerman say-so is disbelieved, shouldn’t the other Zimmerman say-so also be disbelieved? So Zimmerman is the guard who [always lies](http://xkcd.com/246/)? The 911 calls, girlfriend calls mean nothing? ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/433 "2012-04-24T11:51:43Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > \ > The 911 calls, girlfriend calls mean nothing? Sure they mean something, they are pieces of the puzzle and I await other pieces being added prior to reaching a conclusion. At this point, there is no 3rd party witness we know of who can prove or disprove Zimmerman’s claim his head impacted concrete or that he shot Martin, we only have Zimmerman’s say-so on both. With so much speculation and conjecture in this thread, specifically concerning Zimmerman’s truthfulness, I’m aspiring to be **Bricker** ish in pointing out there’s a lot of “I’ll believe what supports what I’ve concluded and disbelieve what doesn’t” even from the same source. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/434 "2012-04-24T12:31:57Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Sure they mean something, they are pieces of the puzzle and I await other pieces being added prior to reaching a conclusion. > > At this point, there is no 3rd party witness we know of who can prove or disprove Zimmerman’s claim his head impacted concrete or that he shot Martin, we only have Zimmerman’s say-so on both. > With so much speculation and conjecture in this thread, specifically concerning Zimmerman’s truthfulness, I’m aspiring to be **Bricker** ish in pointing out there’s a lot of “I’ll believe what supports what I’ve concluded and disbelieve what doesn’t” even from the same source. I find the idea that you either have to believe everything someone says or none of it to be completely inane and outside the realm of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/435 "2012-04-24T12:39:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Here you go, from the reporter who had the report leaked to her. > > Furthermore, Zimmerman’s father has confirmed that story. Was that the same reporter that had George’s weight at 250, and Treyvon’s at 140? Or was that a different reporter? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/436 "2012-04-24T12:44:29Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Or the autopsy report. > > I’ll be struggling to understand how one can repeatedly smash an uncooperative person’s head on concrete without injury to one’s fingers. Holding the side of the head, not the back What I would like to see in the autopsy report is angle of the gunshot wound. This would confirm position > [@](#): > > Of course now that we’ve reduced the number of skull injuries to two, one of which could be explained by falling, and striking one’s head on the sidewalk, after being punched in the nose. The other appearing to be a deep scratch or minor cut given the amount of blood and actual appearance of the wound, the kind of wound that would be associated more with the moving of one’s own head over an rough surface . . . I’m struggling even more. > > CMC fnord! I can see the wound from a backwards fall matching the wound of head banging. Abrasions could have been caused because Zim was struggling to get free. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/437 "2012-04-24T13:05:25Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > If Zimmerman were beaten by Martin and their neighbour had the foresight to take a picture before it were\* cleaned and treated at the scene, shouldn’t the police have had similar foresight? > > - Is the second clause subjunctive too? It sounds awkward. Ive run many crime scenes. The answer is no. If the Paramedics are on scene, they are in charge of any issues regarding health. Thus, those wounds wouldnt be logged as they may have been in this case by the police. Essentially, they would have been dressed with 4x4s and kerlex or tape. In my years on the rigs (6), the only thing officers did was tape the scene and wait for CSI to arrive. In fact, in many cases, its the officers on scene who may contaminate evidence with improper scene handling. So when you say shouldnt the police have similar foresight, the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/438 "2012-04-24T13:06:47Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > girlfriend calls mean nothing? All conversations can point to more clarity. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/439 "2012-04-24T14:52:36Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Essentially, they would have been dressed with 4x4s and kerlex or tape. If the surveillance video is any indication, it doesn’t appear as if this was done by the paramedics. Zimmerman’s head was without wound dressings on that tape. As a paramedic, would there ever be occasion in which you wouldn’t at least stick a bandaid on a scalp wound? Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/440 "2012-04-24T15:09:25Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Ive run many crime scenes. The answer is no. If the Paramedics are on scene, they are in charge of any issues regarding health. Thus, those wounds wouldnt be logged as they may have been in this case by the police. Essentially, they would have been dressed with 4x4s and kerlex or tape. How about a medical grade cyanoacrylate wound closure product like GluStitch? Might they have used that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=23)