# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/41 "2012-04-12T14:36:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A punch that bloodies the nose is “serious bodily harm.” I cited the caselaw for that back in the IMHO thread - do you want it again? So you don’t believe the law imposes a proportional response requirement in self defense situations? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/42 "2012-04-12T14:48:55Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > considering he’s been arrested at this point for it, to you and your “knowledge” of the law i say don’t quit your day job. > > armchair wikipedia laws and trying to philosophically apply them however you want. > > he’s in jail for this now. Sure. But I have no idea if he actually got a bloody nose or not, and I have no idea if he got the bloody nose because he grabbed Martin and tried to physically restrain him first or not. Ms. Corey does, or at least she has access to a wealth of evidence that I don’t, evidence from which she can decide what she can likely prove to a jury. Lacking that evidence, all I can say is IF Zimmerman merely approached Martin and demanded of him, “What are you doing here?” and if Martin responded to that question by punching Zimmerman hard enough to bloody his nose, then the law says that Zimmerman may use deadly force to protect himself. Ms. Corey’s decision to charge Zimmerman strongly suggests that the scenario I just laid out didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/43 "2012-04-12T14:50:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. > > But I have no idea if he actually got a bloody nose or not, and I have no idea if he got the bloody nose because he grabbed Martin and tried to physically restrain him first or not. > > Ms. Corey does, or at least she has access to a wealth of evidence that I don’t, evidence from which she can decide what she can likely prove to a jury. Lacking that evidence, all I can say is IF Zimmerman merely approached Martin and demanded of him, “What are you doing here?” and if Martin responded to that question by punching Zimmerman hard enough to bloody his nose, then the law says that Zimmerman may use deadly force to protect himself. > > Ms. Corey’s decision to charge Zimmerman strongly suggests that the scenario I just laid out didn’t happen. negative. zimmerman was the interloper. the ground on with “one could stand” was occupied by martin. if your scenario PLUS martin approached zimmerman, then yes. if your scenario as said, no. this moot to speculate on anymore. you’re the same dude who said he couldn’t be detained (he was) and said he can’t be arrested (he was). clearly “stand your ground” does not apply to zimmerman, otherwise he’d be free right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/44 "2012-04-12T14:50:56Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Exactly as it should be. And now a jury can decide if it believes Zimmerman’s story. > > The outrage was (at least for me) because for quite some time it appeared that Zimmerman’s story would never be tested by a jury of his peers but merely taken as true by the investigators. Well, even before he gets to a jury, Florida law gives him the right to ask a judge to determine if probable cause exists. However, I’d be very surprised at this point to learn that Corey’s team did not have enough evidence to support probable cause. But I’d also be very interested in seeing it; it amounts to free early discovery for the defense. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/45 "2012-04-12T14:53:14Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > negative. > zimmerman was the interloper. > > the ground on with “one could stand” was occupied by martin. > > if your scenario PLUS martin approached zimmerman, then yes. if your scenario as said, no. No. If Zimmerman simply approached Martin and asked, “What are you doing here?” you believe that lone is sufficient to allow Martin to punch Zimmerman and bloody his nose? What are you basing that on? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/46 "2012-04-12T14:55:50Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > you’re the same dude who said he couldn’t be detained (he was) and said he can’t be arrested (he was). > > clearly “stand your ground” does not apply to zimmerman, otherwise he’d be free right now. What I said was that he couldn’t be detained without probable cause to believe the force he used was unlawful. And that he couldn’t be arrested without probable cause to believe the force he used was unlawful. And both of those are absolutely accurate statements of the law. Indeed, in the information Ms. Corey will file, she will allege that she has sufficient facts to show probable cause that the force used was unlawful. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/47 "2012-04-12T14:55:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. If Zimmerman simply approached Martin and asked, “What are you doing here?” you believe that lone is sufficient to allow Martin to punch Zimmerman and bloody his nose? > > What are you basing that on? the fact zimmerman was armed, had been skulking around following martin \*noticed \*for enough time that martin expressed fear to his gf and accelerated his pace to get away from the strange stalking man who didn’t identify himself in any way, shape or form… yeah, you get to kick that guy’s ass when the chases you down. jesus. that’s why he’s in jail. on what planet do you think you can, in the dark, hunt down kids in the night and chase them for blocks and follow them and run after them with guns and not identify yourself and NOT expect some kind of self defense to factor in? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/48 "2012-04-12T14:56:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So you don’t believe the law imposes a proportional response requirement in self defense situations? I believe the law stands for the proposition that getting a bloodied or broken nose is proportional to deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/49 "2012-04-12T14:59:51Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > the fact zimmerman was armed, had been skulking around following martin \*noticed \*for enough time that martin expressed fear to his gf and accelerated his pace to get away from the strange stalking man who didn’t identify himself in any way, shape or form… > > yeah, you get to kick that guy’s ass when the chases you down. > > jesus. that’s why he’s in jail. > > on what planet do you think you can, in the dark, hunt down kids in the night and chase them for blocks and follow them and run after them with guns and not identify yourself and NOT expect some kind of self defense to factor in? I’m sorry, but that’s not the case. He’s in jail because there is evidence --which I haven’t seen, but which must exist – to believe the force he used was ulawful. He is not in jail because, as you so cogently phrase it, “Yeah, you get to kick that guy’s ass when the chases you down.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/50 "2012-04-12T15:01:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I believe the law stands for the proposition that getting a bloodied or broken nose is proportional to deadly force. you’re nuts, man. you’re and advocate for murder. i’m glad you’re just an internet no-body with no say so in anything that matters. wow. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/51 "2012-04-12T15:06:48Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > you’re nuts, man. > > you’re and advocate for murder. I’m getting tired of trying to explain this to you: you are not allowed to insult other posters unless you’re in the Pit. This is another formal warning. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/52 "2012-04-12T15:09:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I believe the law stands for the proposition that getting a bloodied or broken nose is proportional to deadly force. Is this a personal belief, or is it supported by case law? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/53 "2012-04-12T15:24:39Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > you’re nuts, man. > > you’re and advocate for murder. > > i’m glad you’re just an internet no-body with no say so in anything that matters. > > wow. Well, here’s my citation for that claim: The Florida Court of Appeals in _Owens v. State_, 289 So. 2d 472 (1974), quoted with approval _Anderson v. State_, 291 N.E.2d 579 (1973), wherein “great bodily harm” was found in a case in which the victim was struck five blows with a fist. FSA § 776.012 says that a person may use deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent great bodily harm. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/54 "2012-04-12T15:26:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is this a personal belief, or is it supported by case law? There’s one case above. I found another which upheld “great bodily harm” for a broken nose. Cite on request. But the overarching theme is that it’s a question of fact for the jury. Certainly there’s no case law that a bloody nose is _per se_ “great bodily harm.” But it’s also clear that a bloody nose is sufficient to support a jury’s finding of great bodily harm. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/55 "2012-04-12T15:26:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry, but that’s not the case. > > He’s in jail because there is evidence --which I haven’t seen, but which must exist – to believe the force he used was ulawful. > > He is not in jail because, as you so cogently phrase it, “Yeah, you get to kick that guy’s ass when the chases you down.” I believe it’s possible that he’s in jail because of public pressure, but the charge of murder did surprise me. I posted one article in the other thread that details the failures of the local police to investigate properly which made sense. IMO, the crucial point is their intial confrontation, who initiated it, who was the aggressor. Martin’s girlfriend may be able to shed some light on that. I can also believe that in Z’man’s mind , when he’s losing a fight with someone he percieves as a some sort of criminal, someone who may be trying to disarm him, there’s good reason to panic and fear. However, that doesn’t mean he’s not the initial aggressor. There was no reason for him to approach Martin and question him , while armed. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/56 "2012-04-12T15:28:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, here’s my citation for that claim: > > The Florida Court of Appeals in _Owens v. State_, 289 So. 2d 472 (1974), quoted with approval _Anderson v. State_, 291 N.E.2d 579 (1973), wherein “great bodily harm” was found in a case in which the victim was struck five blows with a fist. So, could I punch Zimmerman four times without exceding the law’s definition of ‘great bodily harm’? Three times? Two? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/57 "2012-04-12T15:31:58Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > you’re nuts, man. > > you’re and advocate for murder. > > i’m glad you’re just an internet no-body with no say so in anything that matters. > > wow. You need to understand **Bricker** isn’t telling you what _he_ thinks is proportional, he’s telling you what he thinks _the law_ says is proportional. In this case, he’s uncontroversially correct. The florida law in question counts deadly force as proportional to a broken nose. No one who has read and understood the law and the subsequent caselaw could disagree. Bricker isn’t advocating for the view that this is a good law. He hasn’t said anything one way or another on that. He’s simply explaining _what_ the law is. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/58 "2012-04-12T15:33:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There’s one case above. I found another which upheld “great bodily harm” for a broken nose. > > Cite on request. Let’s add that there is a difference between a punch that breaks your nose, and someone on top of you who is continuing to hit you. My guess is in Z’man’s mind he was the good guy trying to defend his neighborhood. He had no way of knowing how far Martin would go in the beat down as it was happening. If someone punches you and knocks you down that’s one thing. If they then get on top of you and continue the assault you have reason to fear. I haven’t heard it mentioned a lot but I read in one article that Z’man said Martin was trying to get his gun. For Martin that could easily be self defense as in the Trevor Dooley case, but from Martin’s perspective the thought of losing his gun would be a good reason to fear. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/59 "2012-04-12T15:35:02Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You need to understand **Bricker** isn’t telling you what _he_ thinks is proportional, he’s telling you what he thinks _the law_ says is proportional. > > In this case, he’s uncontroversially correct. The florida law in question counts deadly force as proportional to a broken nose. No one who has read and understood the law and the subsequent caselaw could disagree. > > Bricker isn’t advocating for the view that this is a good law. He hasn’t said anything one way or another on that. He’s simply explaining _what_ the law is. I’m betting you won’t get an acknowledgement of this simple and understandable point. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/60 "2012-04-12T15:43:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the jury didn’t agree. > > For one thing, black homeowner McNeil told the police that Epp came at him with a knife, but the knife was found folded in Epp’s pocket. I notice you didn’t mention that, and I assume it’s because the [Salon.com](http://Salon.com) article you linked to describes the event in this way: > > Why do you suppose the author of the Salon article left out the false claim made by McNeil to police? > > The jury is entitled to conclude that since McNeil lied, his report of the remainder of the scene was also self-serving. > > The [Salon.com](http://Salon.com) article says, “After a neighbor across the street who witnessed the encounter corroborated McNeil’s account, police determined that it was a case of self-defense and did not charge him in the death.” > > But in fact, the neighbor testified that when Epp increased his speed toward McNeil and McNeil raised his gun and fired at Epp’s head, Epp’s hands were at his sides, and the neighbor did not see Epp raise his hands or see any weapons in Epp’s hands. > > Why do you suppose the author of that article left out those facts? But hadn’t McNeil’s daughter called her Dad to say Epp had a knife? If that’s the case then McNeil had every reason to believe the man rushing at him and reaching in his pocket had a deadly weapon, and in fact, it was found. From my reading, Epp had already demonstrated anger issues and his potential to be dangerous. I’d say a man rushing at me on my own property after a warning shot, is potentially very dangerous. That case really confuses me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=4)