# Question about Tim Burton's "Alice in Wonderland" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 16, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165 "2010-02-16T04:17:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MitzeKatze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ad7895/32.png) [@MitzeKatze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MitzeKatze)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/61 "2010-03-12T14:04:52Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > And I was also a little concerned by the strong implication that Alice is not completely sane, But I will tell you a secret: None of the best people are! > [@](#): > > And it seemed to me that the end of the movie involves A not-completely-sane young woman being despatched to China as an Opium merchant, possibly to prevent her causing any further embarrassment to the family, which is… probably not the way the movie should have ended, IMHO. I picked up on that but was not nearly as bothered as some people are. After all, the opium trade implications explained quite a lot about Alice, her father and her general take on life and why her trip(s) to Wonderland- which I refuse to call Underland ;)- were perfectly logical and believable. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/62 "2010-03-12T15:11:57Z")
WTF was that Underland crap. Seriously, what was the point of that? Eh, I liked it enough. Johnny Depp’s psycho Scots accent was interesting, and the March Hare made me laugh. But the ending was ridiculous. I felt like Burton didn’t really bother to understand the books. The movie wasn’t nonsensical enough to me. Everyone was nuts but in a psychotic way rather than a silly way. That’s just the literature student in me though. I enjoyed the movie, though I wasn’t _greatly_ impressed. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/63 "2010-03-12T16:06:07Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Everyone was nuts but in a psychotic way rather than a silly way. i agree. wonderland was supposed to be whimsical and childishly illogical. burton turned it into a 3d imitation of Narnia and all the feudal strife that goes along with it. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/64 "2010-03-13T20:46:14Z")
I enjoyed it enough. The 3D was better than A Christmas Carol and the movie was fun. I didn’t read the source all the way through and so was not tied to much in the way of previous opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/65 "2010-03-14T20:12:55Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > WTF was that Underland crap. Seriously, what was the point of that? > > Eh, I liked it enough. Johnny Depp’s psycho Scots accent was interesting, and the March Hare made me laugh. But the ending was ridiculous. > > I felt like Burton didn’t really bother to understand the books. The movie wasn’t nonsensical enough to me. Everyone was nuts but in a psychotic way rather than a silly way. > > That’s just the literature student in me though. I enjoyed the movie, though I wasn’t _greatly_ impressed. I hated the ending, starting from the ridiculous dancing scene right up to Alice sailing away on the boat. I think that’s where the story most missed the mark… the books weren’t about bucking conformity, they were about the absurdity of life through the eyes of a child. Alice didn’t wake up at the end of _Wonderland_ and tell her Latin teacher to shove off or anything. It’s not acceptable for good little Victorian girls to do that. Carroll never once suggested that it was. He was just reflecting a child’s reality and lamenting, in the most tender and nostalgic way, the loss of innocence that nobody, not even Alice, is immune to. So yeah, the movie’s vision of Alice triumphing over society’s expectations of her, not at all in line with the book or with the values of Victorian England. Totally implausible. Though I confess I love, LOVE the fact that she didn’t meet a cute boy or something on the ship. For once a female protagonist’s life vision did not involve marrying someone who loved her for who she really is. It involved exploration and a successful career. And I love that. You don’t realize how rare that is until you see it in a film like this one. Overall, though, for what it was, the movie was pretty good. Not brilliant, but nothing to be ashamed of, really. Except the dance. Shame of the dance is definitely appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/66 "2010-03-14T20:38:22Z")
> [@BigNik](#): > > Burton has an habit of taking a work of art, erasing it down to the original sketches, then smearing faeces all over it as though he’s a particularly enthusiastic entrant for the Turner Prize. > > This was a less-than-adequate commentary on the Wonderland story and the comparison of the wonder of childhood to the banality of the real world. The dialogue was awful, the performances (with the exception of Stephen Fry as the Cheshire Cat) varied between “uneven” (Helena Bonham Carter) and “godawful” (Wasikokowska), the visual style was inconsistent and unimaginative… > > I sat through all of it because I’d hoped that it’d get better. This made me hate myself. > > There are better things to spend $20 and an hour and an half of your life on. > [@nashiitashii](#): > > It was a bit of a bizarre take on Wonderland, but it was more riffing off the concept and the books than trying to recreate either tale. I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it until he stops working: Tim Burton is a hack. He is void of original ideas. His _only_ idea is to take something that people love from their childhood and “goth it up”. Fuck him. Stop paying to see his movies. I mean, did y’all not see how he fucked up _Planet Of The Apes_? Did you miss how he botched _Charlie & The Chocolate Factory_? Did it escape your notice that he fucked up Irving Washington’s story with his _Sleepy Hollow_? Every film he makes is an excuse for him to goth some shit up and provide a paycheck for his talentless wife. And Depp isn’t nearly as talented an actor as many people make him out to be (that’s right; I said it). ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/67 "2010-03-14T22:55:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it until he stops working: Tim Burton is a hack. He is void of original ideas. His _only_ idea is to take something that people love from their childhood and “goth it up”. Fuck him. Stop paying to see his movies. > > I mean, did y’all not see how he fucked up _Planet Of The Apes_? Did you miss how he botched _Charlie & The Chocolate Factory_? Did it escape your notice that he fucked up Irving Washington’s story with his _Sleepy Hollow_? > > Every film he makes is an excuse for him to goth some shit up and provide a paycheck for his talentless wife. And Depp isn’t nearly as talented an actor as many people make him out to be (that’s right; I said it). It’s fair enough to not like him, but I don’t think he is void of originality - what about _Edward Scissorhands_ or _Big Fish_ or _The Nightmare Before Christmas_? I haven’t seen Planet of the Apes, but I loved what he did with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and I liked Sleepy Hollow too. Good luck getting people to ‘stop paying to see his movies’ - there is obviously a reason he does well at the box office. I personally would pay to see pretty much anything with his name on it, just for the crazy dark visuals and the over the top stylized atmosphere. Actually, Big Fish is one of my favorite movies of all time. I can accept that his work is a taste that does not appeal to all, but I don’t think it’s fair to say he is a hack or a fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/68 "2010-03-14T23:51:31Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > It’s fair enough to not like him, but I don’t think he is void of originality - what about _Edward Scissorhands_ or _Big Fish_ or _The Nightmare Before Christmas_? I haven’t seen Planet of the Apes, but I loved what he did with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and I liked Sleepy Hollow too. > > Good luck getting people to ‘stop paying to see his movies’ - there is obviously a reason he does well at the box office. I personally would pay to see pretty much anything with his name on it, just for the crazy dark visuals and the over the top stylized atmosphere. Actually, Big Fish is one of my favorite movies of all time. > > I can accept that his work is a taste that does not appeal to all, but I don’t think it’s fair to say he is a hack or a fuck up. _Big Fish, Edward Scissorhands,_ and _The Nightmare Before Christmas_ are indeed all great. To say nothing of _Beetlejuice_. But I hated _Planet of the Apes_ and _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory._ He seems to do very well with new ideas but adapting an existing work definitely brings out the hack in him. And I’ve come to hate Johnny Depp ever since _Pirates of the Caribbean_, the most overrated movie of the past fifty years. ---
**Author:** ![BigNik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@BigNik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigNik)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/69 "2010-03-15T00:01:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I mean, did y’all not see how he fucked up _Planet Of The Apes_? Sigh. Yes, yes I did. I even own a copy on DVD because it came as part of the ape-head PotA set. > [@](#): > > Did you miss how he botched _Charlie & The Chocolate Factory_? No, I didn’t miss that one. > [@](#): > > Did it escape your notice that he fucked up Irving Washington’s story with his _Sleepy Hollow_? I did skip this one. Partly because I’m not really aware of the base story, partly because the concept didn’t interest me. I’m not saying that going to see this one was a good idea, especially as Burton hasn’t made a watchable movie since the remake of Batman. I’m just trying to tell others not to make the same mistake. I remember seeing in interviews he did for Planet of the Apes that he wasn’t interested in reading the book, and didn’t even watch the movie very closely. He had his own idea. An idea that, it turns out, made absolutely no sense at all and was poorly written and directed. I keep seeing his remakes out of a misplaced loyalty to the original. I know that I should stop this, but I don’t seem to be able to. And I’ve only just realised how much I sound like a rape victim defending their attacker. Well I’m not the victim here! _MY CHILDHOOD is the victim here!_ Won’t somebody think of my childhood? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/70 "2010-03-15T00:21:03Z")
> [@BigNik](#): > > Sigh. Yes, yes I did. I even own a copy on DVD because it came as part of the ape-head PotA set. > > No, I didn’t miss that one. > > I did skip this one. Partly because I’m not really aware of the base story, partly because the concept didn’t interest me. > > I’m not saying that going to see this one was a good idea, especially as Burton hasn’t made a watchable movie since the remake of Batman. I’m just trying to tell others not to make the same mistake. > > I remember seeing in interviews he did for Planet of the Apes that he wasn’t interested in reading the book, and didn’t even watch the movie very closely. He had his own idea. An idea that, it turns out, made absolutely no sense at all and was poorly written and directed. > > I keep seeing his remakes out of a misplaced loyalty to the original. I know that I should stop this, but I don’t seem to be able to. > > And I’ve only just realised how much I sound like a rape victim defending their attacker. Well I’m not the victim here! _MY CHILDHOOD is the victim here!_ Won’t somebody think of my childhood? Dude, I quoted you up there because you’re one of the people who has it right; not sure why you keep paying him to piss all over your (our) childhood. There may be a 12 step program or something that could help you tho. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/71 "2010-03-15T00:48:09Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > It’s fair enough to not like him, but I don’t think he is void of originality - what about _Edward Scissorhands_ or _Big Fish_ or _The Nightmare Before Christmas_? I haven’t seen Planet of the Apes, but I loved what he did with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and I liked Sleepy Hollow too. > > Good luck getting people to ‘stop paying to see his movies’ - there is obviously a reason he does well at the box office. I personally would pay to see pretty much anything with his name on it, just for the crazy dark visuals and the over the top stylized atmosphere. Actually, Big Fish is one of my favorite movies of all time. > > I can accept that his work is a taste that does not appeal to all, but I don’t think it’s fair to say he is a hack or a fuck up. Gothing shit up ≠ originality _Edward Scissorhands_? You mean that take on _Frankenstein_ that he gothed up? FFS, he’s doing it again, this time by “re-imagining” his own fucking movie. Seriously, he’s so void of ideas that he’s remaking his own 1984 short film, _Frankenweenie_. _Big Fish_ I haven’t seen, but I understand it may not be all that goth-y. None of my friends owns a copy, and since I won’t pay this imbecile for his product, I haven’t seen it. _Nightmare Before Christmas_ wasn’t his movie; he came up with the gothy story and characters and then he produced it. It was directed by his gothy friend, Henry Selick (who later gave us the pointlessly goth _Coraline_). And he didn’t write it either- the screenplay was written by Michael McDowell, who also wrote _Beetlejuice_. Goth goth goth: it’s the only schtick Mr. Burton has. Unless pissing all over established intellectual properties and people’s fond childhood memories counts as a _modus operandi_. For the record, _Beetlejuice_ sucked, his _Batman_ wasn’t as good as the TV series, and his wife’s acting is so bad she can’t get a role unless it calls for a crappy goth performance (which is apparently what Mr. Burton always needs). Oh yeah, and Danny Elfman hasn’t written anything worth hearing since the early '80’s except for the Simpsons theme song. IMO. YMMV. BYBW. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/72 "2010-03-15T00:58:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Unless pissing all over established intellectual properties and people’s fond childhood memories counts as a _modus operandi_. Hey, just cause you didn’t think of it first…! ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/73 "2010-03-15T01:09:56Z")
I didn’t realize it was a Disney movie until the opening credits; I put all expectations on hold after that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/74 "2010-03-15T01:11:38Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Hey, just cause you didn’t think of it first…! Actually, I prefer to come up with my own IPs and if I’m gonna piss all over something, I prefer to defile everybody’s misplaced current affections. Been doing it since the 1980s. And judging by our culture, I’ll never lack for material. (I warned people not to listen to **a-Ha** and **'Til Tuesday** back in the day, and I was right: that shit sucks to listen to as “oldies” even more than it sucked when it was new. And please, slap my eardrums if I ever have to listen to **Mr. Mister** ever again. Do you realize that some day that shitty **Rhianna** “ummmmmber ella” song will be an oldie? \) But I’ve said my piece (and then some) about Mr. Burton here. I’ll bow out so those who’ve actually lost 108 minutes of their lives can talk about the movie at hand. c ya ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/75 "2010-03-15T01:28:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Actually, I prefer to come up with my own IPs and if I’m gonna piss all over something, I prefer to defile everybody’s misplaced current affections. Been doing it since the 1980s. And judging by our culture, I’ll never lack for material. > > (I warned people not to listen to **a-Ha** and **'Til Tuesday** back in the day, and I was right: that shit sucks to listen to as “oldies” even more than it sucked when it was new. And please, slap my eardrums if I ever have to listen to **Mr. Mister** ever again. Do you realize that some day that shitty **Rhianna** “ummmmmber ella” song will be an oldie? \) You ‘warned them’? What was going to happen to them? I’m unclear as to why it is so dire if I watch movies I enjoy - yes, Tim Burton has a style that he sticks to. I happen to enjoy it. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/76 "2010-03-15T01:46:09Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > You ‘warned them’? What was going to happen to them? I’m unclear as to why it is so dire if I watch movies I enjoy - yes, Tim Burton has a style that he sticks to. I happen to enjoy it. So what? Obviously, based on what happened in his examples, is that decades later you’ll have to read internet postings about how he still hates them. And remember, so far both of his warnings have come true! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![RheaDark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@RheaDark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RheaDark)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/77 "2010-03-15T02:14:45Z")
I for one thought that the movie was kinda nice. I guess I don’t have as high standards as the rest of you… ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/78 "2010-03-15T02:43:59Z")
Maybe, maybe not. “Kinda nice” isn’t too far from several reviews of it here. What did you like and not like about it? ---
**Author:** ![RheaDark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@RheaDark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RheaDark)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/79 "2010-03-15T03:43:53Z")
Um. Uh. See, problem with asking that question is that I’m not a very critical movie-goer. I’m easily satisfied. Eye candy but a half-arsed plot? Fine with me. Awesome plot but bad effects? Fine with me. Alice was pretty decent in both respects (I don’t remember the original Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking-Glass plots, so I can’t compare for faithfulness). Basically, I can’t tell you the specifics. ---
**Author:** ![bagga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@bagga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bagga)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165/80 "2010-03-15T03:51:19Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > t took things that were absurdities in the original stories and eliminated the absurdity by making them concrete. For example, > > the jabberwocky in the movie is a flying dragon that shoots lightning out of its mouth. Oh god. Okay, I’m not going to pay for this film. And, like Antinor1, I reckon this will dash any hopes for American McGee’s Alice, which is sad because at least McGee’s Alice bought something to the table other than big names and big budgets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-tim-burtons-alice-in-wonderland/529165.md?page=5)