# Question about torrents and pirating **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 29, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770 "2011-07-29T20:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/1 "2011-07-29T20:31:46Z")
The pertinent facts: A couple years ago there was a vampire movie called Daybreakers that had a cool-looking [poster.](http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9800000/Daybreakers-2010-horror-movies-9887825-1280-1024.jpg) “Golly,” I said to myself, “That’s a cool-looking poster. I’d like to get a longer look at those vampires.” But the reviews were only fair-to-middling so I knew my $12 would be staying in my pocket and I would wait for the movie to come to TV. Then I started to think, “If I pirate the movie now, the producers get no money\* from me\*, and if I wait until the movie comes to TV in a year or two, the producers get no money _from me_.” Now my question: Given the fact that there was _never_ any chance of my $12 moving from my pockets to the producers’ pockets, if I had pirated the movie in 2009, how would it have been stealing? ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/2 "2011-07-29T20:33:20Z")
The law says so. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/3 "2011-07-29T20:34:14Z")
Because you took something (ie the right to control the distribution of a copyrighted work) from its rightful owner without legal authority to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/4 "2011-07-29T20:38:25Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > Now my question: > > Given the fact that there was _never_ any chance of my $12 moving from my pockets to the producers’ pockets, if I had pirated the movie in 2009, how would it have been stealing? You’re not. It gets called “stealing” because that works people up more than “copyright violation”. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/5 "2011-07-29T20:39:16Z")
TV makes money from advertisments. You’d be missing the commercials that would have spurred you to buy stuff ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/6 "2011-07-29T20:45:14Z")
Because my vague promise to give you $20 in 2 years does not make it okay to pick my pocket now. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/7 "2011-07-29T20:56:13Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > The pertinent facts: > > A couple years ago there was a vampire movie called Daybreakers that had a cool-looking [poster.](http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9800000/Daybreakers-2010-horror-movies-9887825-1280-1024.jpg) “Golly,” I said to myself, “That’s a cool-looking poster. I’d like to get a longer look at those vampires.” > > But the reviews were only fair-to-middling so I knew my $12 would be staying in my pocket and I would wait for the movie to come to TV. > > Then I started to think, “If I pirate the movie now, the producers get no money\* from me\*, and if I wait until the movie comes to TV in a year or two, the producers get no money _from me_.” > > Now my question: > > Given the fact that there was _never_ any chance of my $12 moving from my pockets to the producers’ pockets, if I had pirated the movie in 2009, how would it have been stealing? Actually, it’s more like fencing. You are receiving know stolen goods and (if you are part of the torrent system) you are delivering known stolen goods. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/8 "2011-07-29T20:59:00Z")
> [@Ichbin\_Dubist](#): > > Because my vague promise to give you $20 in 2 years does not make it okay to pick my pocket now. No the same thing, since you’re out something if someone picks your pocket. A better analogy would be, oh, someone tapping into your cable TV signal so they can watch for free. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/9 "2011-07-29T23:13:51Z")
The watching of the movie seems to be a desire to you, something you would enjoy. Cable companies and network TV want you to enjoy watching them, as such they buy things to show you, such as this movie, because it’s what you like. But since you have already seen it, it lowers the value of their service in your mind. This decreased value has a potential of having you drop their service, or stop watching their network, which hurts them. Perhaps you would never do that, but over many people the potential works into real numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/10 "2011-07-30T16:12:18Z")
It is complicated. If you pirate the movie and just keep your mouth shut about it it is a pretty minor offense. If you pirate the movie and teach your friends how to pirate the movie it is probably a bad thing. If you pirate the movie and tell your friends it was good (without mentioning how you watched it) and some of your friends or friends of your friends then pay to see it because of your recommendation the ethical/legal situation becomes pretty murky. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/11 "2011-07-30T16:56:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You’re not. It gets called “stealing” because that works people up more than “copyright violation”. Well, it gets called stealing because somebody else owns something, and you’re acquiring it without compensating them for it. It’s not legal theft because you aren’t literally _taking_ it away from the possession of its owner, but it’s not really a wild leap in logic to call it stealing in a conversational sense. It meets the everyday dictionary definition. [QUOTE=A Dodgy Dude] Given the fact that there was never any chance of my $12 moving from my pockets to the producers’ pockets, if I had pirated the movie in 2009, how would it have been stealing? [/QUOTE] I would like a dinosaur skeleton. I am absolutely never going to go through whatever process it would require to get a real one - no chance. I’m sure you don’t believe that that means that if I take one from a museum, I didn’t steal it. So that can’t be the only factor that determines whether it’s stealing or not, especially since not being able to afford a thing is like the most reasonable rationale for stealing there is. And if you can’t afford something, obviously, you aren’t going to buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/12 "2011-07-30T17:48:15Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > Then I started to think, “If I pirate the movie now, the producers get no money\* from me\*, and if I wait until the movie comes to TV in a year or two, the producers get no money _from me_.” Networks pay to show the movie. The amount they pay is largely related to the amount of ad views they expect to sell, which is related to the number of people who watch it on TV. So, in theory, the producer gets less money if less people watch it on TV and pirate it instead. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/13 "2011-07-30T19:46:29Z")
Just say no to pirates, ARRRRRGHH!!! Support the arts. Buy it don’t steal it. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/14 "2011-07-30T20:13:15Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Just say no to pirates, ARRRRRGHH!!! > > Support the arts. Buy it don’t steal it. Or if you do steal it, don’t try to justify it. People who go on and on about why pirating is ok are horribly annoying. I have no problem admitting that I’ve been known to pirate now and then. I could tell you all about how I wouldn’t have bought it anyway and I’m really supporting the artist and so on, but really, it comes down to three things. I’m broke, it’s easy, and I have loose morals. So if you want to download, I say do it, just know that it’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/15 "2011-07-30T20:22:43Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Or if you do steal it, don’t try to justify it. People who go on and on about why pirating is ok are horribly annoying. I have no problem admitting that I’ve been known to pirate now and then. I could tell you all about how I wouldn’t have bought it anyway and I’m really supporting the artist and so on, but really, it comes down to three things. I’m broke, it’s easy, and I have loose morals. So if you want to download, I say do it, just know that it’s wrong. No, it isn’t that simple. Thanks to our screwed up copyright laws there’s an awful lot of work out there that isn’t legally available at all, quite a lot of which has no clear legal copyright owner at all. Calling it “stealing” if you download something when it costs no one anything and you literally can’t buy it “stealing” distorts the word. For that matter, is it stealing to borrow a book? To read over someone’s shoulder? Glancing at a picture without paying? Those also are labeled as “theft” by the copyright fanatics. Unless you want to end up in a dystopia where you are literally charged for everything you look at, at some point you need to say “no, _that_ isn’t theft” to these people because that’s literally what the copyright extremists are pushing for. A society with eye trackers everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/16 "2011-07-30T20:25:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it isn’t that simple. Thanks to our screwed up copyright laws there’s an awful lot of work out there that isn’t legally available at all, quite a lot of which has no clear legal copyright owner at all. Calling it “stealing” if you download something when it costs no one anything and you literally can’t buy it “stealing” distorts the word. > > For that matter, is it stealing to borrow a book? To read over someone’s shoulder? Glancing at a picture without paying? Those also are labeled as “theft” by the copyright fanatics. Unless you want to end up in a dystopia where you are literally charged for everything you look at, at some point you need to say “no, _that_ isn’t theft” to these people because that’s literally what the copyright extremists are pushing for. A society with eye trackers everywhere. But we already _have_ a system that allows you to read out-of-print books and listen to older music that might not be currently circulating. It’s called the library. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/17 "2011-07-30T20:29:23Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Or if you do steal it, don’t try to justify it. People who go on and on about why pirating is ok are horribly annoying. Agreed, that’s most annoying part. It’s stealing no matter how they slice it. As a part time artist. Meaning I have a full time job but work on art on the side and sell pieces I would be terribly pissed if people could just download my paintings because the technology is there. There’s also an example of a local band in my area that has some what of a following. Their album has been stolen ahem, I mean downloaded at last count 5000 times. Not a big deal some people, it’s just music after all. This band at one point had their electricity cutt off. I’m sure they could of used the money. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/18 "2011-07-30T20:58:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > that’s literally what the copyright extremists are pushing for. A society with eye trackers everywhere. Hello; please cite. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/19 "2011-07-30T21:20:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But we already _have_ a system that allows you to read out-of-print books and listen to older music that might not be currently circulating. > It’s called the library. Um, no. I certainly can’t find a lot of books I want there. As for music, most older American music [is not legally available in this country](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5139522). > [@](#): > > Archivists and collectors have long lamented the lack of access to older recordings. So the Library of Congress commissioned a team to find out just how many are out of print. The report – released in August – suggests that over 70 percent of American music recorded before 1965 is not legally available in the United States. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Hello; please cite. I’ll see if I can dig up a story. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770/20 "2011-07-31T16:09:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Um, no. I certainly can’t find a lot of books I want there. As for music, most older American music [is not legally available in this country](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5139522). > > I’ll see if I can dig up a story. What percentage of pirating is of pre-1965 music? I would guess it is a very very small number. Not a very strong justification. I torrent a lot of stuff, but I know it’s wrong. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-torrents-and-pirating/590770.md?page=2)