# Question about walled cities/fortresses of antiquity **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480 "2008-12-10T01:21:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/21 "2008-12-10T07:56:37Z")
I, for one, welcome our slightly elevated overlords. ---
**Author:** ![WoodenTaco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@WoodenTaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodenTaco)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/22 "2008-12-10T08:06:30Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > The [Sogdian Rock](http://www.livius.org/aj-al/alexander/alexander_t54.html) captured by Alexander the Great would appear to meet the criteria in the OP… Just from that link: I was not aware that Alex had such rockin’ sideburns. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/23 "2008-12-10T16:50:53Z")
> [@bramma23](#): > > I’m normally terrible at visualizing these kinds of things. Are we talking about something like Minis Tirith at Gondor for a fictional representation? > [@clairobscur](#): > > As I understand the OP’s question, it would rather be something like Helm’s Deep. Actually if I recall aright, they both were described as having this arrangement: an incomplete wall backed up against a supposedly unscaleable mountain or cliff face. In fact I think Isengard did too. For some reason Tolkien seemed fond of this defense arrangement, which is perhaps why it also crops up in the works of his imitators. I know Tolkien was famously expert in medieval language and literature, but I wonder if that knowledge extended to siege warfare. Maybe it was symbolism (broken ring?), or maybe he just felt that fully encircled fortresses didn’t always suit his storytelling needs. It probably streamlines things a lot, plotwise, if foes can only approach the castle from one direction. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/24 "2008-12-10T17:12:34Z")
I think there’s something pretty important that everyone else has overlooked. The deadliest thing that a fortified citadel nestled safely under a protective cliff would face wouldn’t be rapidly descending cavalry or elevated archers, it would be Mother Nature. Every time it rained heavily: flash floods Every time it snowed: avalanche Rest of the time: good chance of a rock fall In the real world, these things would kill a lot more castle dwellers than the occasional berserk goblin horde. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/25 "2008-12-10T17:47:47Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > I think there’s something pretty important that everyone else has overlooked. The deadliest thing that a fortified citadel nestled safely under a protective cliff would face wouldn’t be rapidly descending cavalry or elevated archers, it would be Mother Nature. > > Every time it rained heavily: flash floods > Every time it snowed: avalanche > Rest of the time: good chance of a rock fall > > In the real world, these things would kill a lot more castle dwellers than the occasional berserk goblin horde. I think that depends both on the local geography and climate. First, I don’t think the OP meant an overhanging cliff face, like P~, where P is the cliff and ~ the fortress viewed from the side, but a straight-up (and unclimbable cliff) like cI (this time viewed more from above - the wall is only a half-circle), but the cliff rises like this I from the side. (sorry, I suck at ASCII drawing.) Second, if the cliff formed a triangle on the other side of the mountain, with the highest point above the city, facing away from the castle, rains and snow would run down there. If the cliff consists of granite or other such strong material, there would be hardly any to none rock fall. The other advantage (again depending on local geography) is time and effort saved building only half a circle - if you’re out in the middle of flat land (steppe or sandy desert), with one straight, smooth (by the erosion of wind; and therefore impossible to climb) cliff, and you have to carry each stone block for your wall for several miles, then building only half a circle means your city/castle/fortress is finished much quicker and earlier than the full version, with the option of living in the finished half-circle and continiuing work on the advanced fortress 2.0 I think that’s why in wilderness survival tips, they tell you to look for an existing shelter of one or two joining walls, so you have less area to cover with your bivac tarp/snow bricks/ fir branches /whatever you have at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/26 "2008-12-10T18:12:41Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > I think there’s something pretty important that everyone else has overlooked. The deadliest thing that a fortified citadel nestled safely under a protective cliff would face wouldn’t be rapidly descending cavalry or elevated archers, it would be Mother Nature. > > Every time it rained heavily: flash floods > Every time it snowed: avalanche > Rest of the time: good chance of a rock fall > > In the real world, these things would kill a lot more castle dwellers than the occasional berserk goblin horde. All true, and the idea of having someone use siege engines to fling boulders above the fortress and set off rockslides on the side unprotected by walls would also make the defenders a bit uncomfortable, I’d think. ---
**Author:** ![UncleFred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@UncleFred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleFred)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/27 "2008-12-12T02:45:35Z")
Not exactly the same thing, but Marseille in Roman times may have had something like that. Except it wasn’t at the base of a cliff; more like at sea-side with a bit of cliff going down to the ocean. A wall surrounded the city except for along the shore/cliff line. I am going by Steven Saylor’s “Last Seen in Massilia” which describes a seige of Massilia (present day Marseille) by Caesar’s army. My understanding is that while Saylor’s works are basically fiction, they are written in a historically correct context. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/28 "2008-12-12T13:16:51Z")
One reason for such an arrangement may be historical inertia. The castle may have been sited on a previously occupied spot. An existing village or such. That village could have been founded there for other reasons than defense: the cliff provided shelter from the weather, it was the highest\* easily accessible\* place, the village peasants wanted to get to their fields without climbing up and down a mountain every day, etc… So when the local noble plans his new fortress, it goes on top of the old one and neighboring mountains be damned. “No one could get up there to attack us anyway. And it would be way too expensive to drag building materials up there. And the castle is to defend the town, so why would I put it outside the town…” Also, there is value to the idea that a neighboring high point is just too hard to climb. It may be harder to get up to the heights than to besiege from the regular approaches. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/29 "2008-12-12T13:25:50Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > I think there’s something pretty important that everyone else has overlooked. The deadliest thing that a fortified citadel nestled safely under a protective cliff would face wouldn’t be rapidly descending cavalry or elevated archers, it would be Mother Nature. > > Every time it rained heavily: flash floods > Every time it snowed: avalanche > Rest of the time: good chance of a rock fall > > In the real world, these things would kill a lot more castle dwellers than the occasional berserk goblin horde. Google san juan de la peña for some impressive pictures of a monastery which is one of the most impregnable places I’ve ever seen. The name means “St John of the Rock” and it isn’t on a rock or against a rock: it’s under a rock, in a canyon. There is no way to get siege engines there and no way to bombard it. That said, the arrangement of “a fortress against a hill” is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen in Spain, but there’s places (the village of Artajona for example) which only bothered fortify the climbable part of the hill. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/30 "2008-12-12T13:35:51Z")
I’m not certain about the realistic counterparts, but the arrangement makes good sense IF you command sufficient man/orc/elf/ whatever power to construct your fortifications on the appropriate scale. Siege weapons can be rendered mostly useless with a sufficiently massive wall, and natural problems can be likewise addressed. Once constructed, these walls would provide a sort of secondary protection along the mountain side should enemy scouts manage or bother to scale the mountain. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/31 "2008-12-12T13:54:41Z")
I’m trying to think of fortifications in the real world like Minas Tirith but I am drawing a blank. There is this via Wiki: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont\_Saint-Michel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mont_Saint-Michel) ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/32 "2008-12-12T13:55:11Z")
There is an old (very old) ringfort in Ireland which backs onto a high cliff. If I can remember the name I’ll post a picture. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/33 "2008-12-12T14:02:33Z")
Found 2 examples, but not what I was thinking of: [http://www.a-wee-bit-of-ireland.com/eire\_jul\_2005/ring\_fort\_1.jpeg](http://www.a-wee-bit-of-ireland.com/eire_jul_2005/ring_fort_1.jpeg) and [http://photos.igougo.com/pictures-photos-l196-s2-p300234-Lisnagun\_Ring\_Fort.html](http://photos.igougo.com/pictures-photos-l196-s2-p300234-Lisnagun_Ring_Fort.html) Also, you may be interested in Crannogs, which were built in lakes. [![](https://www.nationsonline.org/gallery/Ireland/Crannog-Lake-Dwelling.jpg) ](https://www.nationsonline.org/gallery/Ireland/Crannog-Lake-Dwelling.jpg) (Sorry, can’t seem to hyperlink atm) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/34 "2009-01-25T14:23:42Z")
I was rereading the “War of the Ring” and found a note on Minas Tirith that concerned this subject. Tolkien conceived of the Hill of Minas Tirith and Mt. Mindolluin being connected by a shoulder that was only as high as the 5th level of the city. I then checked the “Atlas of Middle –Earth” to verify. The distance between the extremely steep Mt. Mindolluin and Minas Tirith was large; it was nearly 1000’ from the cliffs to the Citadel. The wall of the city also defended this shoulder of course and the top of the shoulder contained the Rath Dínen, House of Kings and the House of Stewards (collectively the Hallows). So even if an enemy gained the heights of Mt. Mindolluin they could only have rolled stones down on the tombs and not the city. Additionally hauling materials to make siege engines up to the top of Mt. Mindolluin was probably not worth it as this peak was very steep and peak in snow year round. _As per the [Thain’s book](http://www.tuckborough.net/mountains.html#mindolluin): Mindolluin means “towering blue-head.” The element mini means “stand alone, stick out” and mindo means “isolated tower.” The word luin means “blue.”_ ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/35 "2009-01-25T14:50:27Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > There is an old (very old) ringfort in Ireland which backs onto a high cliff. If I can remember the name I’ll post a picture. I imagine you’re referring to Dún Aengus in the Aran Islands. > **[Conference & Event Centre - University of Galway](https://www.universityofgalway.ie/events/)** ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/36 "2009-01-25T21:04:54Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I imagine you’re referring to Dún Aengus in the Aran Islands. > [Conference & Event Centre - University of Galway](http://www.conference.ie/imageupload/Dun_Aengus.jpg) Bingo. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/37 "2009-01-25T21:57:59Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I imagine you’re referring to Dún Aengus in the Aran Islands. > [Conference & Event Centre - University of Galway](http://www.conference.ie/imageupload/Dun_Aengus.jpg) How steep is the cliffs at the point of that semi circle ,and is there some access to the water without a gravity assist (ie jumping). From the arc of that wall, it looks like it was intended to protect the danes from the irish ,and not the other way around. Declan ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/38 "2009-01-25T22:09:29Z")
It has been suggested that the cliffs were not there when it was built and the Fort may have been a full circle originally. Erosion of over 2000 years can do that. Here is the [Wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BAn_Aengus), there is [plenty more out](http://www.google.com/search?q=D%C3%BAn+Aengus&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1)there about this stone enigma. I note Wiki suggests it may not have even been a fort, but I did not see that in other articles I looked at. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/39 "2009-01-25T22:36:48Z")
As noted above, plenty of fortified towns were built using this arrangement but abutting the coast. Obviously, this would not generally have been a secure approach, but it would have had much the same effect assuming you weren’t defending your town against an enemy whose navy controlled the seas. If they _did_ control the seas, your habor would just be a nice entry point. [San Pedro de la Roca in Cuba](http://costaricatravel.suite101.com/article.cfm/costa_rica) is a half-walled fortress set against a more or less impassable seacliffs. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480/40 "2009-01-25T23:15:03Z")
There are many similar ‘fortresses’ in the American Southwest. [Cliffpalace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mesaverde_cliffpalace_20030914.752.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-walled-cities-fortresses-of-antiquity/476480.md?page=3)