# Question for anti gun people? home defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475 "2019-02-13T17:00:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/201 "2019-02-15T13:18:08Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I bartended when two cops were called in to break up a fight, pepper spray was used and the rookie sprayed the other officer in the face. I wish to assure you, the veteran cop was worthless for half an hour. > > Johnny Knoxville got his start filmed while receiving the effects of non lethal weapons on assailants. He flat out says pepper spray is by far the most effective for range, accuracy and pain. > > I don’t know what your training experience was like. Perhaps you’d like to purchase a 1/2 oz can for $7 at your local Fleet Farm and spray yourself in the face with it and tell us how useless it is. I’ve been sprayed with it, didn’t stop me from throwing water bottles or kicking riot shields. Afterwards it was not fun. CS gas worked a little better mainly for the coughing factor. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/202 "2019-02-15T13:29:21Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Question: Lets say your at home and someone is outside trying to break down your door and get in to either rob or hurt you. Yes, you can and should dial 911 (assuming your phone is working) but you need protection NOW. > > What would you do since you dont own a firearm? > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > As much as I like the idea of a gun, I agree most people wouldnt be ready to use one effectively. Same way with a baseball bat, knife, or other weapon. If your not ready to actually use it to the extent you would kill someone it really isnt helpful. I haven’t read the whole thread but generally I agree with the sentiments that others have posted: 1. I don’t typically worry about home invasions, 2. I’d probably run, hide, or use a makeshift club as a last resort, but there’s an implied 3rd option here, 1. Maybe I’d just die I think people are pretty good about accepting the notion of “When my time’s up, I guess that’s it” when it comes to heart attacks, getting hit by a bus, or struck by lightning. But the same is true for random-intruder-wants-to-murder you. It’s an equally unlikely event, maybe even more so, but for some reason a certain percentage of the population has latched on to owning a gun as being a significant way to avert disaster. Which, as you point out, it isn’t – having a gun isn’t any great guarantee that you’d survive one of these one-in-a-million home invasions. Frankly, it doesn’t seem worth the headache to purchase, store, and train on a firearm, not to mention the increased risk to my family from having a gun in the house. So basically, to answer your OP – maybe I’d just die. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/203 "2019-02-15T14:28:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My wife and I own a gun right now. We plan to have kids. Once we have kids, we’re gonna have to figure out whether there’s a way to own guns safely such that the chance of one of the kids being hurt or killed by the gun is less than their chance of being killed by an intruder (i.e. is a top-notch gun safe enough for this?), or whether this isn’t possible and we’re better off getting rid of them. Or, as a third option, if it’s possible, locking them up somewhere far away from home – which we’ll consider, since home defense is not really a significant reason why we own a gun. We have three children. They’re older now (15, 18, and 21). I also own _lots_ of guns. I never locked up the guns. I never locked up the ammo. Even when they were very young. By doing so, it took the mystique out of them; seeing a gun was like seeing a lamp or a chair. There were zero problems. I don’t necessarily recommend this approach to others. But it worked well for us. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/204 "2019-02-16T01:26:02Z")
1. I don’t own a gun, but I don’t think I’m anti-gun. 2. The question in the OP has never occurred to me as something I should worry about. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/205 "2019-02-16T02:06:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > 1. I don’t own a gun, but I don’t think I’m anti-gun. > > 2. The question in the OP has never occurred to me as something I should worry about. I’ve had a guy climbing through my Wife’s car window threatening death, and guys with a shotgun forcing their way into city homes. I do worry about it. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/206 "2019-02-16T02:19:51Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > We have three children. They’re older now (15, 18, and 21). I also own _lots_ of guns. > > I never locked up the guns. I never locked up the ammo. Even when they were very young. By doing so, it took the mystique out of them; seeing a gun was like seeing a lamp or a chair. There were zero problems. > > I don’t necessarily recommend this approach to others. But it worked well for us. Did you do this with medications, toxic substances like household cleaners, and other dangerous substances, on the same no-mystique theory? You’ve been very, very lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/207 "2019-02-16T04:21:20Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I’ve been sprayed with it, didn’t stop me from throwing water bottles or kicking riot shields. > Afterwards it was not fun. > CS gas worked a little better mainly for the coughing factor. Blasted is subjective. Did it just in fact spray your shoes or something? The subject of the op is home invasion. I submitted Johnny Knoxville’s opinion as an expert on painful nonlethal deterants. If you have a video of someone getting shot in the face with pepper spray and shrugging it off please let us know. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/208 "2019-02-16T05:50:31Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Blasted is subjective. Did it just in fact spray your shoes or something? > > The subject of the op is home invasion. I submitted Johnny Knoxville’s opinion as an expert on painful nonlethal deterants. If you have a video of someone getting shot in the face with pepper spray and shrugging it off please let us know. I was basically soaked on my whole head and front of chest after taking two direct hits. Anyhow, here are just a couple. The guy in the second video is about typical of what I saw for anyone who wanted to still be aggressive. Nevermind that police are taught to use it not as a full solution but just a first step in gaining an advantage, spray and move basically. Since it’s known to commonly not completely subdue someone. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/98Ly2Quy4Ms/maxresdefault.jpg "Officer Shot After Pepper Spray Fails to Subdue Suspect") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98Ly2Quy4Ms) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/LsoUDMd1xWA/maxresdefault.jpg "Pepper spray doesn't work") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsoUDMd1xWA) ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/209 "2019-02-16T06:06:02Z")
As LTL goes , a 40mm sponge round is effective, so are 12ga bean bags, both are still potentially lethal though. A really good taser isn’t a bad idea , assuming they aren’t armed or wearing a heavy jacket. Bringing less than a gun to a gunfight never helps your chances. The taser doesn’t have the painful after effects of pepper spray , but it does a better job incapacitating most people. Knoxville is playing it up for entertainment purpose, but also talking which is overall most painful. I’d probably agree but not immediately and not enough to subdue effectively. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/210 "2019-02-16T09:00:20Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Bringing less than a gun to a gunfight never helps your chances. Our neighbors frequently bring us food. We eat it even though we’ve never had it tested by a chemist. Maybe we’re in an arsenic fight and don’t even know it. Should we be poisoning food and giving that to our neighbors as a precaution? I was born in the 1940’s and have _never_ seen a civilian gun brandished with any intention, not even once. Perhaps I’ve lived a sheltered life — I don’t think I’ve ever even visited Baltimore or Detroit. OTOH, I’ve visited dark allegedly dangerous streets on three continents and had some dealings with drug dealers. And my experience in North America is 20th-century; I get the impression that 21st-century America has become more gun-crazed than ever. Some people around here carry guns, including a hot-headed meth-head who’d heard rumors regarding me and his daughter! I wasn’t concerned. If he wanted me dead, it wouldn’t take much effort on his part to arrange that without my having time to draw my gun, if I’d had one. (Still I was relieved when I learned through the grapevine that he had more faith in my honesty than his daughter’s!) In all my decades in North America, I recall only one non-civilian carrying a gun. (I suppose there were many others I didn’t know about.) I’ve mentioned the story of that guy before — he sat down at our table in a Regional Bridge Tournament (with a prospective girlfriend?) and, being a minor acquaintance of ours, chose to show off his weapon. My partner asked if that was his “surrogate penis.” I think we got two good boards. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/211 "2019-02-16T12:59:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Our neighbors frequently bring us food. We eat it even though we’ve never had it tested by a chemist. Maybe we’re in an arsenic fight and don’t even know it. Should we be poisoning food and giving that to our neighbors as a precaution? > > I was born in the 1940’s and have _never_ seen a civilian gun brandished with any intention, not even once. Perhaps I’ve lived a sheltered life — I don’t think I’ve ever even visited Baltimore or Detroit. OTOH, I’ve visited dark allegedly dangerous streets on three continents and had some dealings with drug dealers. And my experience in North America is 20th-century; I get the impression that 21st-century America has become more gun-crazed than ever. > > Some people around here carry guns, including a hot-headed meth-head who’d heard rumors regarding me and his daughter! I wasn’t concerned. If he wanted me dead, it wouldn’t take much effort on his part to arrange that without my having time to draw my gun, if I’d had one. (Still I was relieved when I learned through the grapevine that he had more faith in my honesty than his daughter’s!) > > In all my decades in North America, I recall only one non-civilian carrying a gun. (I suppose there were many others I didn’t know about.) I’ve mentioned the story of that guy before — he sat down at our table in a Regional Bridge Tournament (with a prospective girlfriend?) and, being a minor acquaintance of ours, chose to show off his weapon. My partner asked if that was his “surrogate penis.” I think we got two good boards. I’m sorry, were you drunk when you wrote this? I can’t even begin to understand the leap of thought that prompted that first paragraph. And you’ve only only seen one non-civillian with a gun? You say North America, do Canadian or Mexican police and military use slingshots or something? ---
**Author:** ![postpic200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@postpic200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postpic200)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/212 "2019-02-16T21:26:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Baseball bat(wooden), baseball bat(aluminum), small frying pan, medium frying pan, large frying pan, eight dining room chairs, one of several dozen kitchen knives of various sizes, untold dozens of other utensils, a strategically swung cat, the other strategically swung cat, two table lamps, one standing lamp, My Beloved’s sharp pointy thing collection, the toaster, the blender, whips, chains, hairspray-with-a-lighter, a fire extinguisher, a marble bust of a nude Ronald McDonald, a complete 1957 set of Funk & Wagnalls(including the Yearbook)…and a back door to calmly walk through while waiting for the police. You get bat, crook BANG you’re dead, you get small frying pan, crook BANG you’re dead, you get large frying pan, crook BANG you’re dead, Notice a pattern, you’re DEAD. Why do you guy think crook are going to follow the gun laws? Given the police will take on average 5 minutes, and given you’re unarmed, what are you going to do to protect your family. I’ll run and hide, maybe the nice crook won’t shoot my wife, children. Crook LOVE gun control laws, because it means their victims who follow the law are unarmed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVC9-4waz8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVC9-4waz8) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/213 "2019-02-16T23:42:17Z")
> [@littleman](#): > > i’m sorry, were you drunk when you wrote this? > I can’t even begin to understand the leap of thought that prompted that first paragraph. qft +1 ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/214 "2019-02-17T01:01:32Z")
What percentage of burglars have guns? If he has a gun and you don’t, well, we can assume that the outcome will be pretty bad for you. But if he’s unarmed, then you probably have a fair chance with an improvised weapon like a bat. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/215 "2019-02-17T01:34:59Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > What percentage of burglars have guns? If he has a gun and you don’t, well, we can assume that the outcome will be pretty bad for you. But if he’s unarmed, then you probably have a fair chance with an improvised weapon like a bat. According to this > **[23 Home Invasion Statistics You Should Be Afraid Of](https://www.creditdonkey.com/home-invasion-statistics.html)** > > Home invasions aren't always violent. 11% of burglars even remove a door or window while the occupants are home. The average loss is around $2,799 per home invasion. Best I can work out burglary is theft when you aren’t home Home invasion is the same except you either are home, or the perpetrators intended force if someone was home but they weren’t. This is considered robbery. That may skew the numbers since I would guess being armed is one way they determine that intent. In any case , 1 in 36 homes will be robbed. 27 percent of those that are home will become a violent crime victim. 41 percent involve firearms. 7.8 percent involve knives. I’m not sure if by involve they mean the robbers were armed …could mean they stole guns, or the victim was armed. Maybe I can find more specific numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/216 "2019-02-17T01:49:45Z")
This says 12percent of of offenders in violent burglaries had firearms. [bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt](http://bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt) But also lists zero deaths as part of home invasion.on either side Indicating they must be classed differently. This tells us 6.4 percent of homicides are from robbery or burglary ( again seperating the two comes down to who you ask) So there is a problem with classification so that there really aren’t clear cut defined answers here. Seems homicides are often just classed as such robbery could ve home invasion or not and burglary could be robbery or just theft. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/217 "2019-02-17T01:50:32Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I’m sorry, were you drunk when you wrote this? > I can’t even begin to understand the leap of thought that prompted that first paragraph. I think that it is that you have to trust people from time to time. At least that people are not going to try to kill you for no reason. Sure, you invite me to a gunfight, I’m gonna bring a gun. You invite me to a picnic, I see no reason for a gun. > [@](#): > > And you’ve only only seen one non-civillian with a gun? > You say North America, do Canadian or Mexican police and military use slingshots or something? From context, I would say that he probably meant civilian, was probably thinking non-leo, and typed what he did. I agree, what he typed is fairly improbable, but that leads me to trust people from time to time that that is not what he meant. I will let him clarify if he feels the need. > [@postpic200](#): > > You get bat, crook BANG you’re dead, you get small frying pan, crook BANG you’re dead, you get large frying pan, crook BANG you’re dead, Notice a pattern, you’re DEAD. > > Why do you guy think crook are going to follow the gun laws? Given the police will take on average 5 minutes, and given you’re unarmed, what are you going to do to protect your family. I’ll run and hide, maybe the nice crook won’t shoot my wife, children. > > Crook LOVE gun control laws, because it means their victims who follow the law are unarmed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVC9-4waz8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVC9-4waz8) Wouldn’t it be great if we could come up with some sort of policy or way to reduce the guns that get into the hands of criminals? That the home invader has a gun makes things different. You are right, a bat or a frying pan won’t protect you, but unless your gun can project a force field, it is not going to protect you either. In fact, if they have a gun and you don’t, then they may feel that their power over you means that you are not a threat, and they will take some of your shit and leave. If you have a gun, then one or both of you will be dead, and no matter the skill you think you have, you cannot guarantee that you will be the one standing at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/218 "2019-02-17T06:28:23Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I was basically soaked on my whole head and front of chest after taking two direct hits. > Anyhow, here are just a couple. The guy in the second video is about typical of what I saw for anyone who wanted to still be aggressive. > Nevermind that police are taught to use it not as a full solution but just a first step in gaining an advantage, spray and move basically. Since it’s known to commonly not completely subdue someone. > > [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=98Ly2Quy4Ms](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=98Ly2Quy4Ms) > > [https://youtu.be/LsoUDMd1xWA](https://youtu.be/LsoUDMd1xWA) I do not believe you about getting sprayed twice in the face getting ‘basically soaked’ and taking the position you are. I just do not. And dude. Your cites are killing me. This first one: “I am a big proponent of OC Spray, I think it is a very good tool against a nonlethal threat, but it doesn’t end every threat. Everybody it affected by it, but it doesn’t completely end it.” Yeah. Bullets have that affect and limitation also. Follow up is necessary and since the moronic assholery was so apparent in that police video I doubt he even did the spray part correctly. The Second One: I don’t believe I ever said pepper spray would subdue a red baseball hat. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/219 "2019-02-17T06:36:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think that it is that you have to trust people from time to time. At least that people are not going to try to kill you for no reason. > > Sure, you invite me to a gunfight, I’m gonna bring a gun. You invite me to a picnic, I see no reason for a gun. > From context, I would say that he probably meant civilian, was probably thinking non-leo, and typed what he did. Thanks, **k9bfriender**. Yes, the joke about “maybe you’re in an arsenic fight and you don’t know it” was _intended to be surreal_, was intended to _startle_ and possibly trigger someone to _view matters in a new way_. I knew the chance of success was low, but I still try. And yes, “non-civilian” was a typo error\* for “civilian.” :o I’m doing this increasingly often and need to proof-read more carefully. - - “typo”? I’m fairly good speller and do know that the word “civilian” doesn’t start with silent n-o-n. My fingers are clumsy, but not clumsily clever enough to fall on “non-c” while aiming for the ‘c’ key. It’s some sort of aphasia I guess. I notice similar distortions from other Dopers, though some of those are caused by autocorrect. (I don’t use auto-correct.) ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475/220 "2019-02-17T11:35:57Z")
Seems that the risk of being robbed / burgled / shot at depends heavily on where you live in the USA. Could some of the incidents reported as homicides have been cases where a homeowner fought back or drew a gun? Just asking. AFAIK, most intruders want your money or valuables, not your life. if you happen to be on a mafia hit list or whatever, then arm yourself and get training. But just don’t shoot family, friends or police. a number of home defense incidents have resulted in “blue on blue” incidents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-anti-gun-people-home-defense/829475.md?page=12)