# Question for Atheists. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444 "2013-10-28T12:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![half-elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@half-elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/half-elf)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/101 "2013-11-01T17:37:07Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Surely you know that atheists are preventing Christians singing carols in schools or have Christmas trees in public areas. > The latest atrocity is banning the Battle of the Bulge memorial because it has a tree with lights. a. What others have said (that not singing carols in school isn’t stopping anybody from believing anything). b. It would be pretty chaotic in certain diverse (religion-wise) schools if they had to cater for everybody’s different religious practices (I mean that would be the only fair thing, right? Surely you don’t believe that only christian should get to sing their carols. c. We didn’t sing carols in school but I did have to go through the motions of saying a prayer and crossing myself in morning assembly for 12 years (plus having to go to church on certain occasions ). How is that fair? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/102 "2013-11-01T18:46:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I did read about that. Did you? Because here’s what happened. > > An atheist set up a pro-atheist display on public property, adjacent to the Nativity scenes, and the Christian community went ape-shit. Fed up with the complaints from Christians, but legally unable to bar only atheists from public property, the city threw up its hands and banned all displays from public property. In the resulting lawsuit over the subject, no atheists were named. It was a lawsuit between Christian groups, and the government of Santa Monica. > > So, while I don’t believe that Rev. Graham was personally involved in the issue, it was Christians of his particular stripe who were directly responsible for getting nativity scenes banned in Santa Monica. That reminds me of a retort made by Abraham Lincoiln during the Civil War, which expressed the frustration arising from the conflict of the cunning versus the innocent: “Must I shoot a simple-minded soldier who deserts, while I must not touch one hair on the head of a wily agitator who induces him to desert?” Thank you, Reggie Mantle. Admit it–your goal is not free expression but the suppression of religion–you say “pro-atheist display next to a Nativity scene.” As far as I am concerned that’s like putting a picture of cowpies \*\*\*next to \*\*\*a picture of an appetizing dinner. Equal time? ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/103 "2013-11-01T18:54:10Z")
Some of us \*like \*cowpies. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/104 "2013-11-01T19:07:09Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Admit it–your goal is not free expression but the suppression of religion–you say “pro-atheist display next to a Nativity scene.” As far as I am concerned that’s like putting a picture of cowpies \*\*\*next to \*\*\*a picture of an appetizing dinner. Equal time? You realize that from _my_ POV, the nativity scene is the cowpie, right? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/105 "2013-11-01T19:07:48Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That reminds me of a retort made by Abraham Lincoiln during the Civil War, which expressed the frustration arising from the conflict of the cunning versus the innocent: > “Must I shoot a simple-minded soldier who deserts, while I must not touch one hair on the head of a wily agitator who induces him to desert?” > Thank you, Reggie Mantle. > > Admit it–your goal is not free expression but the suppression of religion–you say “pro-atheist display next to a Nativity scene.” As far as I am concerned that’s like putting a picture of cowpies \*\*\*next to \*\*\*a picture of an appetizing dinner. Equal time? So, the Christians who protested were so insecure that they couldn’t stand a competing point of view in the public space? And is dropping belief in your god equivalent to deserting? Ever think that to some of us the Nativity Scene is more like the cow pie than any atheist display? Not to mention that there are plenty of non-Christians out there who don’t need to have Christian propaganda on public space. Some people celebrate Chanukah in Santa Monica after all. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/106 "2013-11-01T19:21:23Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That reminds me of a retort made by Abraham Lincoiln during the Civil War, which expressed the frustration arising from the conflict of the cunning versus the innocent: > “Must I shoot a simple-minded soldier who deserts, while I must not touch one hair on the head of a wily agitator who induces him to desert?” > Thank you, Reggie Mantle. > > Admit it–your goal is not free expression but the suppression of religion–you say “pro-atheist display next to a Nativity scene.” As far as I am concerned that’s like putting a picture of cowpies \*\*\*next to \*\*\*a picture of an appetizing dinner. Equal time? why do you even care? since the nativity scene is ‘not accurate’ and christmas is a pagan holiday? and remember - it was the ‘christians’ who sought to ‘suppress’ the expression of others here - and they lost - and in fighting it - they lost their own ‘freedom to express’ in this area as well (freedom is freedom for all - not just for things we like). ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/107 "2013-11-01T22:02:43Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > Some of us \*like \*cowpies. _De gustibus non est disputandum._ ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/108 "2013-11-01T22:03:58Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > You realize that from _my_ POV, the nativity scene is the cowpie, right? And what is that worth to me? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mrmanface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mrmanface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrmanface)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/109 "2013-11-01T22:09:52Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I am not a Christian, ( though I was raised a lapsed Catholic!), but like everyone else, grew up with a wide exposure to Christian habits. Like saying grace, or Thanking Jesus. Pretty prevalent in movies, and on TV. > > Sometimes, when something I see totally floors me, I blurt out something like, “Oh My God”, or say, “Bless you!”, after a sneeze, or, 'Well, bless your heart!". Or that moment when you’re racing to a hospital because a loved one has had an accident, and you find yourself saying, “Please, dear God, let her be okay!”. > > I do all of these things, and more, really without a second thought. Don’t really see it as anything other than a reflection of the predominant culture I was raised among. But then I got to thinking about your more strident atheists, like some here on our board. How do they view such behaviour I wonder? Do they blurt out such things? Does it give them pause, when they do? Do they strive to remove all such references from their dialogue? > > What are your thoughts? Asumming the person is an atheist. It doesn’t matter because god doesn’t exist. An expletive reference to your imaginary friend is therefore just a slight bit of ammusement. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/110 "2013-11-01T22:13:27Z")
- > [@Voyager](#): > > So, the Christians who protested were so insecure […]\* So you’re practicing psychoanalysis now? :rolleyes: - > [@Voyager](#): > > Not to mention that there are plenty of non-Christians out there who don’t need to have Christian propaganda on public space. Some people celebrate Chanukah in Santa Monica after all. - But atheist propaganda on public space is just fine, eh? “Some people practice Chankukah.” I am aware of that. There are Jews in Santa Monica–doesn’t that toast your shorts? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/111 "2013-11-01T22:27:14Z")
> [@simster](#): > > why do you even care? since the nativity scene is ‘not accurate’ and christmas is a pagan holiday? > > and remember - it was the ‘christians’ who sought to ‘suppress’ the expression of others here - and they lost - and in fighting it - they lost their own ‘freedom to express’ in this area as well (freedom is freedom for all - not just for things we like). I agree with your first paragraph altogether–the Nativity scene is historically, even Biblically, incorrect. Given the authority I would not support it any more than you would. Christmas _is_ a pagan holiday. The scenes, however, have been a landmark in Santa Monica for many years. I used to live in Venice, and when we were little our parents would drive us down Ocean Avenue to look at them. Our family is gone now, and I have no kids…what can parents in the Centinela area show their kids now? Movie ads? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/112 "2013-11-01T22:39:43Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > what can parents in the Centinela area show their kids now? Movie ads? ☹ They could always open their eyes and minds to the amazing things in the universe, such as art, wildlife, or even astronomy, rather than showing them a mundane representation of a silly fairy tale. It seems to me that those who founded the US had some pretty good ideas, but those have been eroded over the last couple of centuries by “cunning” Christians to such an extent that many have now come to see any situation where Christianity is not given a privileged position as an attack on them. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/113 "2013-11-01T22:46:34Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I agree with your first paragraph altogether–the Nativity scene is historically, even Biblically, incorrect. Given the authority I would not support it any more than you would. Christmas _is_ a pagan holiday. > The scenes, however, have been a landmark in Santa Monica for many years. I used to live in Venice, and when we were little our parents would drive us down Ocean Avenue to look at them. Our family is gone now, and I have no kids…what can parents in the Centinela area show their kids now? Movie ads? ☹ You don’t get it - the first remark was a bit of sarcasm pointed to you - why would you want such scenes available to propagate a ‘lie’ as you believe - also given the nature of your sect - you should be ‘celebrating’ any govt ‘suppression’ of religion - as it shows we’re truly in the ‘last days’ - but then we get to the real nature of your mis-understanding - They can still show them those scenes - just wont be on ‘public’ land as it were. The ‘Christians’ (not the govt or the atheists) were the ones that brought the lawsuit in an attempt to suppress others freedom of speech in a public square. _ **Do you not understand that ?** _ I personally could care less as to the ‘validity’ of the scenes - they are part/parcel with the celebration of the holiday - I do not agree that Christmas is a ‘pagan’ holiday. While it shares many traditions that come from other celebrations, the holiday and the celebration it was intended for is purely ‘christian’. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/114 "2013-11-01T22:52:31Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I agree with your first paragraph altogether–the Nativity scene is historically, even Biblically, incorrect. \*\*Given the authority I would not support it any more than you would. \*\*Christmas _is_ a pagan holiday. > The scenes, however, have been a landmark in Santa Monica for many years. I used to live in Venice, and when we were little our parents would drive us down Ocean Avenue to look at them. Our family is gone now, and I have no kids…what can parents in the Centinela area show their kids now? Movie ads? ☹ \ It’s also interesting that you note that IF you were given the authority - YOU would have those things removed from the public square - hypocrite much? and as my last post said - I don’t care - I did not ‘move’ to have them removed - I find them as part of the tradition for the holiday - However, if they are going to be on display - than equal footing must be given to ALL - not just the ‘ones you like’. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/115 "2013-11-01T22:59:58Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > - […]\* > So you’re practicing psychoanalysis now? :rolleyes: If they were not insecure, why get upset about it? \*\* > [@](#): > > But atheist propaganda on public space is just fine, eh? I’d prefer neither. But if you are going to let religious stuff in, you need to let atheist stuff in. > [@](#): > > “Some people practice Chankukah.” I am aware of that. There are Jews in Santa Monica–doesn’t that toast your shorts? 😛 That was an obscure Tom Lehrer reference you just missed. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/116 "2013-11-01T23:04:50Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I agree with your first paragraph altogether–the Nativity scene is historically, even Biblically, incorrect. Given the authority I would not support it any more than you would. Christmas _is_ a pagan holiday. > The scenes, however, have been a landmark in Santa Monica for many years. I used to live in Venice, and when we were little our parents would drive us down Ocean Avenue to look at them. Our family is gone now, and I have no kids…what can parents in the Centinela area show their kids now? Movie ads? ☹ No churches there? I used to live next door to a little Catholic Church which had a Nativity scene each December. That’s where they belong. Now gaudy Christmas decorations are for everybody. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/117 "2013-11-01T23:44:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I used to live next door to a little Catholic Church which had a Nativity scene each December. […]. Yeah…and didn’t you wish you could knock it down? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/118 "2013-11-01T23:53:07Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Religions are very good about brainwashing people almost from birth. If you were exposed to religion at a young age, as I was, those phrases do get burned into your psyche. How do you raise kids without brainwashing them? Isn’t brainwashing a simply part of parenting? Do you expect children to make an informed decision on their own? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/119 "2013-11-02T00:01:00Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Yeah…and didn’t you wish you could knock it down? :rolleyes: Where did he say that? ANyone can read his full quote - “where they belong” - why would you need to ‘edit’ that out ? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/120 "2013-11-02T07:01:01Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Where did he say that? > > ANyone can read his full quote - “where they belong” - why would you need to ‘edit’ that out ? Who edited anything out? I used only that part of the quote because I tried to made a point: Atheists consider religion a nuisance and would eradicate it if they could (cf. the Bolsheviki in 1918). Right from the start I sensed an ulterior motive in the issue in Santa Monica, and that was to drive the scenery out of Palisades Park along Ocean Avenue in Santa Monica. Who knows, the churches themselves may be next. I trust you about as far as I can throw an anvil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444.md?page=7)