# Question for Atheists. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 28, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444 "2013-10-28T12:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/121 "2013-11-02T07:05:21Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > How do you raise kids without brainwashing them? Isn’t brainwashing a simply part of parenting? Do you expect children to make an informed decision on their own? I think Clothahumnp wants the State to raise children. The only instance of that I know of in history was in Sparta, and that didn’t help them any when the Athenians met them in battle! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/122 "2013-11-02T07:17:39Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > They could always open their eyes and minds to the amazing things in the universe, such as art, wildlife, or even astronomy, rather than showing them a mundane representation of a silly fairy tale. > […] For one thing, although the Los Angeles area has fine museums, which existed in the 1950s, for art and astrtonomy (along with the Griffith Park Observatory), we did not go to them. Viewing things from the car was all our parents could afford; we were very low-income people. ☹ For another, as badly melded from the Gospels as the popularly accepted Christmas story (as illustrated by the Nativity scene) is, I do not assume it to be a “silly fairy tale.” If _you_ think so, be my guest–prove to me the existence at any time, of George Washington, Sir Isaac Newton, Daniel Webster, Leonardo daVinci, Maimonides, or Omar Khayyam. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/123 "2013-11-02T09:50:11Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > None of those are an example of “an atheist not letting somebody believe whatever they wish to”. They are all examples of “not letting government-funded facilities endorse a specific religion”. Which is not remotely the same thing. > > Personally I don’t get that worked up about it as long as it’s just the ceremonial trimmings of a religion and not actual pressure to conform to that religion’s precepts, but I certainly understand why it bothers other people who see it as the thin end of a very large wedge that some Christians take great delight in pushing as far as possible. \ have been pushing for centuries. Good grief, to read your reply, it’s as though people never sang carols till last year. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/124 "2013-11-02T10:01:41Z")
> [@half-elf](#): > > a. What others have said (that not singing carols in school isn’t stopping anybody from believing anything). > b. It would be pretty chaotic in certain diverse (religion-wise) schools if they had to cater for everybody’s different religious practices (I mean that would be the only fair thing, right? Surely you don’t believe that only christian should get to sing their carols. > c. We didn’t sing carols in school but I did have to go through the motions of saying a prayer and crossing myself in morning assembly for 12 years (plus having to go to church on certain occasions ). How is that fair? The USA is a country founded on Christian/ Judao principles and in which the culture is predominantly Christian based. If immigrants don’t want to live in such a society, they are welcome to go live in a country that caters to their beliefs. The USA doesn’t allow Sharia law, in case you hadn’t noticed- is that a slap in the face to Muslims? If some pupils don’t want to sing carols based on their religion, I doubt anyone these days is going to force them to do so. My original statement, if you bothered to read it is about why do athiests want to stop other people doing what they enjoy and have been doing for hundreds of years, when it doesn’t hurt them. Dog in the manger comes to mind. \ Did you go to a Church school? Even if you didn’t, did it hurt you, scar you for life? I had to play football at school, even though I loathed it. Big deal. At work, I had to do things I didn’t like every day. If it was too bad, I’d have changed jobs, but it wasn’t and I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/125 "2013-11-02T11:25:53Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Okay, but you mostly all seem to be referring to the more innocent, bless you’s, OMG’s, and some cursing when you whack your thumb. > > What about the scenario where you find yourself in an hospital waiting room silently pleading, “please God, please God…”? > > Same? Or different? Bless you has a social function, you’re saying something nice. It’s not the same if you say gesundheit, the word isn’t as nice. In Portuguese there is no way of saying sleep well other than “dorme com deus” (sleep with god). I say that, no problem. I’d rather say something else, but nothing is as nice. I’ve heard people say “dorme bem” once or twice but it sounds cold and hollow to me. Portuguese-speaking atheists I know usually say dorme com deus, the words have become divorced from the religious meaning just as with bless you. Swearing when you hurt yourself has the positive effect of reducing pain. What matters is that the swear word is a naughty word _to you_, with the worse you swear the more it reduces pain. So I swear if I hurt myself in the way that is most effective, which sometimes includes Jesus and god. (It’s probably helpful if you’re religious because then swearing with god is “worse” so it reduces pain more, I’m sure god wouldn’t mind as he supposedly loves you.) But saying “please god” would accomplish nothing, so why would I do that? I can’t imagine a situation in which it I would have reason to say it. If it would somehow make me feel better I’d say it and it wouldn’t bother me at all. But it has no function so I don’t say it. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/126 "2013-11-02T12:55:28Z")
I’m pretty close to a strident atheist and while it would never occur to me to say “bless you” to someone for any reason or to do anything that was actually addressed to god, I say such things all the time. Mostly because it amuses me to get annoyed and shout “Fuck you god!” when I don’t believe any such thing exists. When my religious friends call me on it I just say I’m in the perfect position to be blasphemous. I don’t believe Thor exists either but am still willing to say Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![half-elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@half-elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/half-elf)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/127 "2013-11-02T13:14:24Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > The USA is a country founded on Christian/ Judao principles and in which the culture is predominantly Christian based. If immigrants don’t want to live in such a society, they are welcome to go live in a country that caters to their beliefs. > The USA doesn’t allow Sharia law, in case you hadn’t noticed- is that a slap in the face to Muslims? > If some pupils don’t want to sing carols based on their religion, I doubt anyone these days is going to force them to do so. > > My original statement, if you bothered to read it is about why do athiests want to stop other people doing what they enjoy and have been doing for hundreds of years, when it doesn’t hurt them. > Dog in the manger comes to mind. > > \ > Did you go to a Church school? Even if you didn’t, did it hurt you, scar you for life? I had to play football at school, even though I loathed it. Big deal. > At work, I had to do things I didn’t like every day. If it was too bad, I’d have changed jobs, but it wasn’t and I didn’t. I would think after a couple of generations one ceases to be an immigrant even if one retains the religious beliefs of their grandparents. Also, don’t forget that we are talking about atheists (and your were protesting them) which may or may not be immigrants or immigrant- derived. Separating church and state is nowhere near stopping people believing whatever they want. No , I didn’t go to a church school, I just grew up in a place with badly implemented church -state separation. And no, it didn’t scar me, but I certainly wasn’t at liberty to say “um, I don’t agree with this, so I’ll just wait quietly in the classroom till you all finish saying prayers”. Summary: it’s about church - state separation (well actually it isn’t , it’s a hijack of a thread asking atheists if they use religion-based expressions)😛 ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/128 "2013-11-02T14:52:48Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Atheists consider religion a nuisance and would eradicate it if they could (cf. the Bolsheviki in 1918). Bullshit. **SOME** particularly militant atheists want religion wiped out, just as some particularly militant Protestants want Catholicism wiped out. Atheists’ attitudes towards religion are just as varied as Christians’ attitudes towards other Christians (cf. Fred Phelps in 2013). ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/129 "2013-11-02T15:20:08Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Who edited anything out? I used only that part of the quote because I tried to made a point: Atheists consider religion a nuisance and would eradicate it if they could (cf. the Bolsheviki in 1918). Right from the start I sensed an ulterior motive in the issue in Santa Monica, and that was to drive the scenery out of Palisades Park along Ocean Avenue in Santa Monica. Who knows, the churches themselves may be next. I trust you about as far as I can throw an anvil. YOu edited out a critical part of his statement - “Where they belong” - which indicates that as long as that is where they are - he was happy to ignore/celebrate or whatever. Then you try to broad brush ‘all atheists’ - with your comments. You are woefully ignorant of the facts - and you continue to wallow in your ignorance of them. “ulterior motive” - again you still fail to acknowledge that in Santa Monica specifically, it was the Christians who brought the lawsuit to suppress the atheists free speech - they then lost, which also brought to light that the public space was inappropriate for their display - it was the ulterior motive of the ‘Christians’ that brought about there own problem. When you can acknowledge that - you will have taken a step toward honesty. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/130 "2013-11-02T16:43:13Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > For one thing, although the Los Angeles area has fine museums, which existed in the 1950s, for art and astrtonomy (along with the Griffith Park Observatory), we did not go to them. Viewing things from the car was all our parents could afford; we were very low-income people. ☹ You don’t need to visit museums to appreciate the things I mentioned, and more. In fact, I wouldn’t consider museums a good place to see much of anything in an inspiring way. Besides this, I was talking about families in general, rather than yours in particular. Very few families will be unable to take their kids somewhere to see plenty of amazing and inspiring things. There are many things poor parents cannot do for their kids, but opening their minds is certainly not one of them. > [@](#): > > prove to me the existence at any time, of George Washington, Sir Isaac Newton, Daniel Webster, Leonardo daVinci, Maimonides, or Omar Khayyam. Clearly this is not the place to debate the truth of Christian doctrine or the existence of God in general, so I will just say that’s an incredibly bad argument in defence of the existence of God, and that’s just the sort of poor reasoning parents should encourage their kids to see through. If they grow up, and through good reasoning come to the conclusion that God exists, fine. But if they come to a conclusion based on lazy arguments such us “You can’t prove Newton existed, therefore believing in God is no less reasonable than believing in Newton” then something was missing in their education. ---
**Author:** ![thisishowwepray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@thisishowwepray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thisishowwepray)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/131 "2013-11-02T16:52:29Z")
I say oh my god or god fucking damn it or jesus christ for the same reason I say for shit’s sake or fucking shit fuck or whatever else. Atheist (raised Jewish). My Jewish family says similar shit. I don’t say bless you when someone sneezes because I feel aware of it being a meaningless thing to say. I don’t say thank jesus but I do say thank fucking christ or thank fuck. Christ in this case could be any other word. It has nothing to do with jesus and jesus does not come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![nylaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/74df32/32.png) [@nylaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nylaw)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/132 "2013-11-02T17:22:04Z")
I do, but it’s mostly in a non-flattering way, like “goddamn”. Hardly sounds Christian to me to say that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/133 "2013-11-02T18:57:52Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Yeah…and didn’t you wish you could knock it down? :rolleyes: I’d thank you not to distort muy meaning by selective editing - which is particularly stupid given that my real quote is just above. I’d have just as supportive of religious decorations if the place had been a mosque, obviously unlike many extreme Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/134 "2013-11-02T19:03:22Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Who edited anything out? I used only that part of the quote because I tried to made a point: Atheists consider religion a nuisance and would eradicate it if they could (cf. the Bolsheviki in 1918). Right from the start I sensed an ulterior motive in the issue in Santa Monica, and that was to drive the scenery out of Palisades Park along Ocean Avenue in Santa Monica. Who knows, the churches themselves may be next. I trust you about as far as I can throw an anvil. One tends not to want to knock down things while saying they belong someplace. I have no problem with people believing in absurd things - hell even some Cubs fans think they may win a World Series some day soon. I only care about paying for it, or for certain world views getting special treatment, or for people using their faith to reduce my rights and the rights of others. I have no problem with any clergy person refusing to so a same sex wedding. I have a big problem with them whipping up the sheep to forbid anyone from having one. If they think God is against it, they had better demonstrate he existence of this God person without resorting to faith. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/135 "2013-11-02T19:12:55Z")
re: the Santa Monica thing - I realized I’ve been propogating a bit of misinformation after I did a little research. This is the chain of events a) there are a limited number of ‘spots’ 21 - these spots are/were won by ‘lottery’ b) For years - the folks putting up the Nativity scenes had been functionally ‘unopposed’ in getting access to these spots c) in 2011 - a number of atheist organizations were able to get 18 of the spots, leaving no real space for the Nativity scenese d) Forseeing a battle - the city council decided to ban ALL unattended displays - key word being unattended e) The groups for the nativity scene filed suit to get that ban overturned on first amendment grounds, and the suit was dismissed. So - there was never an attempt by either party to ‘suppress the rights of the other’ - and further, the actions of the city council were equal to all parties. The Nativity scenes would still be allowed - as long as they were attended - and it looks like they now limit the permits to single days. None of this prevents either party from ‘free speech’ in the public space. So - my apologies for my comments earlier related to the claim that the ‘Christians brought suit to suppress the speech of the atheists’ - that was clearly in error in this case. More Info here - - [In Santa Monica, battle over Christmas displays takes a new twist](http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/15/local/la-me-1215-nativity-atheist-20111215) - [Santa Monica Nativity scenes to move to private property](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/03/local/la-me-1204-santa-monica-nativity-20121204) ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/136 "2013-11-02T21:48:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No churches there? I used to live next door to a little Catholic Church which had a Nativity scene each December. That’s where they belong. > > Now gaudy Christmas decorations are for everybody. Very well, here’s your entire quote. You say, “That’s where they belong”; where you don’t have to see them–like they’re some kind of Christmastime boogey-man. _YOU_ must be insecure to let that kind of thing get to you, Hmmmmmm? 😛 "♪♫You put that back where it belongs…♪♫ (From “An Officer and a Gentleman”) 🙂 I once found a quote by a literary low-life, H. L. Mencken, who wrote that ‘true liberation was achieved by those who threw dead cats in the sanctuary.’ (I wonder how many people sent him dead cats in the mail after he said that.) If the Nativity scenes are not permitted in Palisades Park, neither should anti-religious displays be allowed. But they will not hide under a bushel basket. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/137 "2013-11-02T22:04:20Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Very well, here’s your entire quote. > You say, “That’s where they belong”; where you don’t have to see them–like they’re some kind of Christmastime boogey-man. > _YOU_ must be insecure to let that kind of thing get to you, Hmmmmmm? 😛 > "♪♫You put that back where it belongs…♪♫ (From “An Officer and a Gentleman”) 🙂 Where did he say that they are where he doesn’t have to see them? A great many catholic churches have nativity scenes outside where people can see them, **but on their property**. That is very different from having them on public property. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/138 "2013-11-02T22:19:57Z")
> [@simster](#): > > re: the Santa Monica thing - > > I realized I’ve been propogating a bit of misinformation after I did a little research. > > This is the chain of events > > a) there are a limited number of ‘spots’ 21 - these spots are/were won by ‘lottery’ > > b) For years - the folks putting up the Nativity scenes had been functionally ‘unopposed’ in getting access to these spots > > c) in 2011 - a number of atheist organizations were able to get 18 of the spots, leaving no real space for the Nativity scenese > > d) Forseeing a battle - the city council decided to ban ALL unattended displays - key word being unattended > > e) The groups for the nativity scene filed suit to get that ban overturned on first amendment grounds, and the suit was dismissed. > > So - there was never an attempt by either party to ‘suppress the rights of the other’ - and further, the actions of the city council were equal to all parties. > > The Nativity scenes would still be allowed - as long as they were attended - and it looks like they now limit the permits to single days. > > None of this prevents either party from ‘free speech’ in the public space. > > So - my apologies for my comments earlier related to the claim that the ‘Christians brought suit to suppress the speech of the atheists’ - that was clearly in error in this case. > > More Info here - > > - [In Santa Monica, battle over Christmas displays takes a new twist](http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/15/local/la-me-1215-nativity-atheist-20111215) > - [Santa Monica Nativity scenes to move to private property](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/03/local/la-me-1204-santa-monica-nativity-20121204) Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/139 "2013-11-02T22:22:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > One tends not to want to knock down things while saying they belong someplace. > I have no problem with people believing in absurd things - hell even some Cubs fans think they may win a World Series some day soon. I only care about paying for it, or for certain world views getting special treatment, or for people using their faith to reduce my rights and the rights of others. > I have no problem with any clergy person refusing to so a same sex wedding. I have a big problem with them\*\*\* whipping up the sheep\*\*\* to forbid anyone from having one. If they think God is against it, they had better demonstrate he existence of this God person without resorting to faith. “whipping up the sheep…” 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444/140 "2013-11-02T22:38:38Z")
_When you hit your thumb with an eight-pound hammer it’s nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a very special and strong-minded kind of atheist to jump up and down with their hand clasped under their other armpit and shout, “Oh, random-fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!” or "Aaargh, primitive-and-outmoded-concept on a crutch!”_ - Terry Pratchett [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-atheists/672444.md?page=8)