# Question for Christian Dopers (Jesus vs. God) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 19, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465 "2018-05-19T16:51:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/21 "2018-05-20T17:29:56Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Having never been Roman Catholic, my experience of the Rosary has been nil. šŸ™‚ > > But I do recall mumbling my way through the Apostlesā€™ Creed a fair number of times in weekly chapel at the Episcopal school I attended for several years before I became a Christian. šŸ˜ƒ Sorry, I should have been more clear that my remarks were addressed to **Arkcon** , and were intended as an expansion on yours. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/22 "2018-05-20T17:53:19Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Of course, not all Christians believe Jesus is God. But, even for them, heā€™s not merely a teacher who did miracles, but the guy you go to (or the name you drop) if you want to speak to God. So, heā€™s godā€™s consigliere!šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/23 "2018-05-20T23:22:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > First off, I noticed a flaw in your assumption. If Jesus is God, then he is exactly as powerful as God, not less powerful. > > Still, that doesnā€™t answer why they call upon Jesus by name. The main theology that is relevant is that Jesus is the intercessor for humanity, replacing the Jewish high priest. So, rather than asking the high priest, one asks Jesus, who will intercede for Christians. This is all directly in the Bible. > > Now, how that interfaces with him also being Godā€“that is complicated, and not in the Bible, because the Trinity concept postdates the Bible itself. But, to put it as simply as a I can, the concept is that Jesus is both his own person and God. God is made up of three persons, all of whom are fully God, not merely a part of God. But it does mean that they can be referred to separately, with different theological roles. > > Of course, not all Christians believe Jesus is God. But, even for them, heā€™s not merely a teacher who did miracles, but the guy you go to (or the name you drop) if you want to speak to God. If you donā€™t believe Jesus is God, you are something else, you are not a Christian. Itā€™s pretty much the definition of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/24 "2018-05-20T23:44:41Z")
Christian here, but hardly the smartest or most expertly. Just a guy. I think it is important to understand a couple things. 1. God exists outside time. Bible says 1,000 years is a day and a day is 1,000 years. The idea of Jesus starting his existence at his earthly birth is wrong. Bible says he was there in the beginning at the creation of the world. - Itā€™s kind of strange that Jesus became a human, existed in our time, and was kind of limited in human ways. Chose to do it to sacrifice self for evil of the world. 1. God is not limited to one personality like humans. While some think of the trinity(Fahter, Son, Holy Spirit) as three gods, itā€™s just one god manifesting in three distinct ways. God is vastly complex, far beyond our full understanding, and has chosen to reveal himself(itself?) in three clear ways. One as ā€œfatherā€, the God we think of really commonly. One as the son, Jesus. One as the spirit, which I donā€™t really get how to explain. Anyway, I donā€™t claim to understand or have citations for my two points above. But I think it relates to your question and I hope it helps. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/25 "2018-05-20T23:50:28Z")
Jesus, as part of the Trinity, was actually part human and in my mind closest to me. And as He was the form to suffer and die for me, why would any of the other names be any better to call upon? It doesnā€™t mean that I donā€™t; more that He (Jesus) is, in internet terminology, the ā€œdefault settingā€. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/26 "2018-05-21T00:12:22Z")
A side note: Christianity, along with Judaism and Islam (and others), are called ā€œAbrahamic Religionsā€ ā€“ that is, they all trace their roots back to the worship of the God of Abraham. That said, I know a number of Christians who vehemently insist that Jews and Muslims are _not_ worshiping the same God as Christians do, because they donā€™t recognize the Holy Trinity. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/27 "2018-05-21T06:51:48Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Jesus, as part of the Trinity, was actually part human By the usual theology, fully God and fully human. At least on the RCC side of the alley, dunnow about the Orthodox side. My favorite Christmas carol involves diapers; I like it precisely because itā€™s about God making Himself fully human. A baby, dependent on His mother and (putative) father, doing all those things that babies do. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/28 "2018-05-21T07:52:52Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > If you donā€™t believe Jesus is God, you are something else, you are not a Christian. Itā€™s pretty much the definition of Christianity. Thereā€™s no agreed-upon definition of Christianity. Iā€™m a Christian and I believe Jesus is definitely not God. (because I believe God is a psychological construct and not any kind of being) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/29 "2018-05-21T13:07:16Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Thereā€™s no agreed-upon definition of Christianity. > > Iā€™m a Christian and I believe Jesus is definitely not God. (because I believe God is a psychological construct and not any kind of being) Um, then you arenā€™t down with the Nicene Creed or any of that jive? You may call yourself a Christian, but I would guess that virtually all Christian denominations would not. Leaving UUā€™s to one side, of course. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/30 "2018-05-21T13:23:37Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Thereā€™s no agreed-upon definition of Christianity. > > Iā€™m a Christian and I believe Jesus is definitely not God. (because I believe God is a psychological construct and not any kind of being) The problem here is, if believing Jesus was a good man who said some very wise things makes you a Christian, then _practically everybodyā€™s_ a Christian. Because how many people who have heard enough about Jesus to have an opinon _donā€™t_ agree with that? If your definition is so broad as to be all-encompassing, it fails to define. This isnā€™t about Christianity; this is true in general. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/31 "2018-05-21T14:34:53Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The problem here is, if believing Jesus was a good man who said some very wise things makes you a Christian, then _practically everybodyā€™s_ a Christian. Including Muslims, who believe that Jesus was the ā€œpenultimate prophet,ā€ before Muhammad. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/32 "2018-05-21T15:14:17Z")
I think it has been covered, but to sum up. In pretty much all Christian doctrine, Christ is God. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are the same being in three persons - coeternal and coequal in all things. Jesus is not a human with Godā€™s power or the biological son of God (though he is called the Son) He is God made flesh - fully human and fully divine. The nature of being fully human did of course make some aspects of his divine nature impossible and thus put on hold. Jesus on Earth was not everywhere as an example, it would seem he gave up some omniscience in order to experience humanity fully, but he was still fully divine and one supposes upon jettisoning the meat sack he was in once more experienced reality in the way that God always does. So, praying to ā€˜Godā€™ or praying to ā€˜Jesusā€™ amounts to essentially the exact same thing. Christians are monotheists, God the Father and God the Son arenā€™t sitting on top of Mt. Olympus having debates over the best way to answer prayers or arguing that someone praying to ā€˜Jesusā€™ deserves more credit than someone praying to ā€˜God.ā€™ They are the same being comprised of three persons. The Trinity is a confusing doctrine and Iā€™ve heard a billion metaphors to get at the root of it and I donā€™t think any do it justice because ultimately we are all physicalists and trying to apply a physical metaphor to a transcendent concept is always rife with problems. One of the better metaphors is to consider ourselves since we ourselves are transcendent beings albeit ones that are extremely connected to the physical world. I think that we can all agree that weā€™re all ā€˜one beingā€™. There isnā€™t another senoy out there plodding around or at least if there is, itā€™s not the same being as ā€œIā€ am. At the same time, what am ā€˜Iā€™? Am I the body that I see in the mirror? A 40-year-old guy with a Dad-bod and a hipster beard? Thatā€™s definitely me, but is it really me? Am I more the chemical reactions in my brain that interpret the light reflecting off of that Dad-bod and give it a coherent shape within my brain? Maybe Iā€™m the brain itself and the body is just some sort of vessel that carries ā€˜meā€™ around. Or am I perhaps the billions of single-cells that share DNA and somehow work in concert to achieve an unknown goal? Maybe Iā€™m the voices in my head that argue whether I need to lose that pot-belly or grab another slice of pizza? How many times have we felt that there are competing people inside of us ā€˜Good senoyā€™ who wants to exercise and eat veggies and ā€˜Bad senoyā€™ that wants to binge watch ā€˜Parks and Recā€™ while shoving ice cream in his face. We certainly recognize that there is only one ā€˜meā€™, but it sometimes feels like there are competing mes and when we really start to think about it, I think the nature of our conciousness can become confusing. And that confusion is just for ourselves, largely physical beings of limited scope with whom we are certainly very well acquainted. I think that we can attempt to very loosely scale this up to a completely transcendent being who is not limited in nature and I think that itā€™s perhaps easy to see how multiple persons can be in one being. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/33 "2018-05-21T17:39:16Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Thereā€™s no agreed-upon definition of Christianity. > > Iā€™m a Christian and I believe Jesus is definitely not God. (because I believe God is a psychological construct and not any kind of being) Iā€™m an atheist and I think God is a psychological construct. That is pretty much proven, and is true whether or not you think God is some kind of being. Thatā€™s assuming I understand what you mean by psychological construct. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/34 "2018-05-21T19:19:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Iā€™m an atheist and I think God is a psychological construct. That is pretty much proven, and is true whether or not you think God is some kind of being. > > Thatā€™s assuming I understand what you mean by psychological construct. One could make a pretty good case that reality is a psychological construct, for what itā€™s worth. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/35 "2018-05-21T19:53:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Iā€™m an atheist and I think God is a psychological construct. That is pretty much proven Good thing weā€™ve got that settled! Cite for this pretty-much-proof? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/36 "2018-05-21T20:21:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Iā€™m an atheist and I think God is a psychological construct. That is pretty much proven, and is true whether or not you think God is some kind of being. > Thatā€™s assuming I understand what you mean by psychological construct. Iā€™m not sure what Iā€™m supposed to mean by it; Iā€™ve probably misused the words to try to find a way to say what I meant. I think God should properly be a topic (or part of a bigger topic) in all elementary psychology textbooks - AND NOT be a topic in any other field of study. I think the concept of ā€œa godā€ naturally occurs to people, that itā€™s good and right as a psychological fact, and that the problem with God is that people ā€œprojectā€ (Iā€™m likely misusing that term) their internal mental state and imagine that it has an external reality. Somewhat similar to if I dream of a unicorn and then spend the rest of my life preaching about the unicorn because I saw it in my dream so it must be around here somewhere. God is all in your head, in a good way, but please stop thinking that your dreams/imagination/psychological processes reflect physical reality. Even if all your friends had the same dream. Thatā€™s what I mean, sort of. Perhaps my opinion has been properly (or at least more coherently) stated by others and has a name. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/37 "2018-05-21T20:30:00Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > God is all in your head, in a good way, but please stop thinking that your dreams/imagination/psychological processes reflect physical reality. My only comment is that the Abrahamic God (unless youā€™re Mormon) is transcendent and by definition doesnā€™t reflect physical reality, although one could say he impacts physical reality. His only immanence would be in the Incarnation of Christ provided youā€™re Christian and perhaps in the sense that the Holy Spirit might be immanent. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/38 "2018-05-21T22:43:07Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > My only comment is that the Abrahamic God (unless youā€™re Mormon) is transcendent and by definition doesnā€™t reflect physical reality, although one could say he impacts physical reality. His only immanence would be in the Incarnation of Christ provided youā€™re Christian and perhaps in the sense that the Holy Spirit might be immanent. šŸ™‚ Iā€™m saying God does not have an existence in any sense but the dream/imagination/Jungian-archetype sense. Iā€™m saying that God has never acted in any way, or had any effect on nature or the world, other than as a dreamlike inspiration for humans to act. Iā€™m saying God is immanent in precisely and only the way that unicorns are immanent. I donā€™t think thatā€™s quite the usual interpretation. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/39 "2018-05-22T00:43:07Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Iā€™m not sure what Iā€™m supposed to mean by it; Iā€™ve probably misused the words to try to find a way to say what I meant. > > I think God should properly be a topic (or part of a bigger topic) in all elementary psychology textbooks - AND NOT be a topic in any other field of study. I think the concept of ā€œa godā€ naturally occurs to people, that itā€™s good and right as a psychological fact, and that the problem with God is that people ā€œprojectā€ (Iā€™m likely misusing that term) their internal mental state and imagine that it has an external reality. > > Somewhat similar to if I dream of a unicorn and then spend the rest of my life preaching about the unicorn because I saw it in my dream so it must be around here somewhere. > > God is all in your head, in a good way, but please stop thinking that your dreams/imagination/psychological processes reflect physical reality. Even if all your friends had the same dream. Thatā€™s what I mean, sort of. > > Perhaps my opinion has been properly (or at least more coherently) stated by others and has a name. Thatā€™s what I was guessing. Sounds good to me. However I think the God concept should also be studied in sociology and history, since it is hard to understand much of either without understanding the concept of god adopted by different cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465/40 "2018-05-22T02:06:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Thatā€™s what I was guessing. Sounds good to me. > > However I think the God concept should also be studied in sociology and history, since it is hard to understand much of either without understanding the concept of god adopted by different cultures. True. God may not be real, but the existence of large groups of people who worship Him/Her/It certainly is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christian-dopers-jesus-vs-god/814465.md?page=1)