# Question for Christians... ah, heck, for Jews and Muslims too **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 31, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429 "2003-03-31T13:09:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/41 "2003-04-01T13:00:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*If I say I’m agnostic, most people have a reasonable idea of what I am. If I say I’m a noncoherentist, I’m there till midnight. Mmm’kay? \*\* Good point. I’ll shut up now. ---
**Author:** ![Kallessa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7993a0/32.png) [@Kallessa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallessa)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/42 "2003-04-01T17:55:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by x-ray vision_ > > So it’s just like living on Earth now? Or do you think God shows us love and mercy here on Earth? First off, let me say that **carlotta** did a great job of summing up what I was taught at my Catholic school, and this is an expansion to address x-ray vision’s post. Imagine living in a world with no love, no joy, no kindness, no contact with any other person or creature. This is life without the Divine. Nothing, nadda, complete emptiness. On Earth now, we have some joy, some love. When we see the Divine face to face, it will be more intense mor ecomplete. My personal belief is that the more you have lead a good life (being kind, loving, honorable etc.) the more you will be able to accept and understand the presence of the Divine (thus making it harder to reject). As said, we can still reject it, and so remove ourselves from the presence of the Divine, but we can always come back. So to answer the OP’s original question, when I was a Christian, I was taught that you controled your fate–so **Priceguy** if after you die, you are confronted ith the presence of the Divine, you can choose to believe in it right then and there. ---
**Author:** ![Kallessa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7993a0/32.png) [@Kallessa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallessa)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/43 "2003-04-01T17:57:44Z")
And bad spelling and punctuation don’t count against you in my heaven. Not even not previewing. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/44 "2003-04-01T18:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kallessa \* > \*\*And bad spelling and punctuation don’t count against you in my heaven. Not even not previewing. \*\* This is the very essence of “grace” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/45 "2003-04-01T23:02:08Z")
I’ll go ahead and give the Orthodox Christian view, which is that the Orthodox Church is the only _sure_ way to get into heaven. This does not mean that everybody else will go to hell, just that the Church makes no official pronouncement on their ultimate fate, other than that those who do good will be rewarded, those who do evil will be punished, and that God will judge each individual with perfect justice and perfect mercy. On the issue of actually attaining Salvation, the Orthodox Church has a view that is rather different than that of the Western churches. The resurrection is not seen in a juridical, but rather an ontological light. Mankind was originally created incorrupt, and supposed to grow into the likeness of God. Through disobedience, the nature of man became corrupted (the most visible symbol of this is death: an unnatural separation of the soul and body). Christ came to earth and took on our nature to join it to Himself, and by accepting and suffering death destroyed it. Salvation is not seen so much as an event as a continuing process, in which one gradually partakes of more and more of the grace of God. Christ’s incarnation and resurrection are thus absolutely essential to salvation, but so is the individual working to purify himself, with the help of God. Salvation is a process that requires cooperation between man and God. To answer the op, then, you will be resurrected and judged, just like every other human who has ever lived. Beyond that, though, is for God to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Kallessa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7993a0/32.png) [@Kallessa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallessa)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/46 "2003-04-01T23:09:39Z")
**yBeayf** This is fascinating–I’ve never looked at Orthodox theology, but this is close to my own beliefs about the resurrection. Any recommendation on books or other sources to give me a deeper look at this faith? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/47 "2003-04-01T23:45:48Z")
**Kallessa** , the “standard” introductory book to Orthodoxy is Abp. Kallistos Ware’s _The Orthodox Church_, and its companion book, _The Orthodox Way_. The author tends to be a bit liberal in areas, but it is by far the best English-language introduction to Orthodoxy. The former book focuses more on the history and practice of the Church, while the latter book is more concerned with theology. If you want to go _really_ in-depth, the best place to start would be St. John Damascene’s [_An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith_](http://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactidx.html), which is an exhaustive catechism of Orthodox theology. Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/48 "2003-04-02T00:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*originally posted by \ ***Kallessa** > > so Priceguy if after you die, you are confronted ith the presence of the Divine, you can choose to believe in it right then and there. cite? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/49 "2003-04-02T03:54:24Z")
To give another approach to yBeayf’s accurate exposition of Orthodoxy, we like to use the metaphor of an ark. Theoretically, one might be able to survive “The Flood” on a raft cobbled together from whatever pieces of driftwood one might find (“live a good life”). But ones chances are better in a properly-built ark (The Church). However, even being on the ark doesn’t mean that one can’t, for no particularly good reason, decide to hop off and drown at the last minute. Now regarding Synergy (human cooperation in salvation). It is "required’ in the sense that the Church teaches that we can’t just sit around and “be saved”. Orthodoxy is very big on the Epistle of St. James (“Know you not, o foolish man, that a faith without works is a dead faith?”), and Orthodox sermons can be replete exhorting us to avoid “the faith of demons”, which is “belief in” Christ that is not backed up with real action. However, it is not “required” in the sense that Christ’s gift of salvation is not efficacious on its own. Instead, Synergy is allowed to us sort of on the premise of anything had cheaply is valued little. However, God is not restricted by our requirements. Part of understanding this is based on the Orthodox understanding of the Image of God within humans. The Greek word that is translated as “image” is “ikon”, which, among many other things, can mean “symbol” or “potential” (thus, the “Nicene Creed” is also known as the Ikon of the Faith/Symbol of the Faith in Orthodoxy). This is sometimes explicitly contrasted against “likeness”. That is, we are “in the Image of God” in that we have been given a potential to live up to. Synergy is part of this living up to the potential. We begin with the Image and strive to approach Likeness. However, one of the fundamental underpinnings of Orthodox theology and soteriology is the basid ontological gulf. In Orthodoxy, the created and the Uncreated are simply unlike each other. The created cannot bridge the gap. The Uncreated can lower Himself to bridge this gap, becoming a go-between, or Mediator. This is how Christ is the Way. In a sense, He actually is the Road. So how does this all answer the original question? It is God’s judgment, and it is not our place as humans to say whom He will and will not save. We have been given a “best chance” method, but that is pretty much all it is, and even then, as the Parable of the Seeds illustrates, it is possible to not benefit from that “best chance”. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/50 "2003-04-02T05:13:46Z")
x-ray vision: No-one needs a cite here; it’s about what everyone personally believes. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429/51 "2003-04-02T06:57:40Z")
> [@](#): > > ## originally posted by Searching For Truth > > ## Hell is complete and total separation from God, which is the most painful and lonely place one could possibly be. This is being cut off from God’s overwhelming love and mercy. > > So it’s just like living on Earth now? Or do you think God shows us love and mercy here on Earth? Christians believe that once they accept Jesus’ forgiveness and accept God in their life, they have a ‘connection’ to God and aren’t seperated from God any more, till limitations apply. This doesn’t necessary that the Christian will have visions of God or of the Divine or hear anything from above (most of them, no but there are exceptions). It’s like a long distance relationship. “Seperation” in used above in the sense of being seperated by hostility, enmity and differences. So the reason why Christians pray and sing those psalms are because they believe because of Christ, it is possible to relate and communicate with God. So yes, Christians do believe God show mercy and love to people on this world, but that would be another thread by itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-ah-heck-for-jews-and-muslims-too/165429.md?page=2)