# Question for Christians and Specially Presbyterians - All Penitent Forgiven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916 "2006-04-24T01:09:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Acqua\_Minerale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Acqua\_Minerale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acqua_Minerale)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916/1 "2006-04-24T01:09:48Z")
I haven’t been to church in years, but I went to church for the first time in years today. The Prayer of Confession during the service contained the following line: “and you (God) forgive the sins of all who are penitent” This seems in conflict with everything I remember about the teachings of the Presbyterian Church. Who is the paster to say who God forgives? What does being penitent (an act) have to go with be forgiven and saved? Am I wrong or is this line making an assumption about who is saved? Isn’t it only through God’s grace that Elect are saved and not through some act such as being penitent even though one of the Elect would be penitent? ---
**Author:** ![Taran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Taran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taran)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916/2 "2006-04-24T01:25:09Z")
Well, not all Christians are Calvinists. The prayer you quote does seem incompatible with the doctrine of the Elect, but not all Christians believe that God alone decides who is saved. Presbyterians may believe that (I honestly don’t know), but United Methodists don’t, and neither do many other denominations. ---
**Author:** ![Acqua\_Minerale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Acqua\_Minerale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acqua_Minerale)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916/3 "2006-04-24T02:27:00Z")
Presbyterians are heavily influenced by Calvanist thought. I also checked the Westminster Confession of Faith which is the first part of the Presbyterian Church (USA)'s Constitution and the outline of their faith. > [@](#): > > CHAPTER XV. > Of Repentance Unto Life. > > I. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace, the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ. > > II. By it a sinner, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God, and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments. > > III. Although repentance be not to be rested in as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof, which is the act of God’s free grace in Christ; yet is it of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it. [http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster\_conf\_of\_faith.html](http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916/4 "2006-04-24T06:04:47Z")
I grew up in a Cumberland Presbyterian Church. If I understand correctly, Presbyterians in general do believe that a person is saved by the Grace of God through the life, death and Resurrection of his Son who atoned for our sins. But in order to accept that Grace, people must accept that Jesus is the Son of God, repent of their sins and try to do better. It is a continuing process. Many Presbyterians also believe that it is fore-ordained by God (pre-destined) which people will be the ones to accept Jesus and repent and therefore live in his Grace. Being “saved by Grace” means that you don’t have to earn your way into heaven. But it doesn’t mean that you get to go hog wild either. It isn’t a “free pass” to live in sin as is often misunderstood by other denominations. It means that you will keep trying to do your best knowing that you are imperfect and that God will be merciful and forgiving. Predestination is not one of my beliefs and I didn’t hear it talked about in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. > [@](#): > > **Taran** : …not all Christians believe that God alone decides who is saved. Presbyterians may believe that (I honestly don’t know), but United Methodists don’t… Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Who else besides God do the United Methodists believe determines who is “saved”? ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916/5 "2006-04-24T09:37:41Z")
A co-worker of mine, a staunch Calvanist (Elect, predestination) admits that there is one plea God is guaranteed to answer: “Please save me!” ---
**Author:** ![Taran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Taran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taran)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916/6 "2006-04-24T18:34:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Who else besides God do the United Methodists believe determines who is “saved”? Each person decides for themselves, just as you laid out in the first paragraph. We cannot save ourselves, but we can prevent God from saving us (or register our disapproval so that He chooses not to; there isn’t any difference from our perspective). **Enola Straight** : Doesn’t that totally deny Election, though? ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916/7 "2006-04-24T20:43:10Z")
[QUOTE=Taran] Each person decides for themselves, just as you laid out in the first paragraph. We cannot save ourselves, but we can prevent God from saving us (or register our disapproval so that He chooses not to; there isn’t any difference from our perspective). **Enola Straight** : Doesn’t that totally deny Election, though? [/QUOTE] IANAProtestant or Calvanist, but a Roman Catholic, so I cannot speak upon this philosophy: AFAIK, Islam is also a predestination based faith which also has a tenet of getting around the predestined path by dying in defense of the faith (martyrdom), thus guaranteeing a spot in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Acqua\_Minerale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Acqua\_Minerale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acqua_Minerale)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-and-specially-presbyterians-all-penitent-forgiven/353916/8 "2006-04-25T21:10:00Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Predestination is not one of my beliefs and I didn’t hear it talked about in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. [/QUOTE] Does the Cumberland Presbyterian Church accept the Westminster Confession? It is ential part of the Presbyterian Church USA. > [@](#): > > CHAPTER III. > Of God’s Eternal Decree. > > I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. > > II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions. > > III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. > > IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. > > V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace. > > VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. > > VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice. > > VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. [http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster\_conf\_of\_faith.html](http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html)