# Question for Christians: How do we know God loves us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2007, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261 "2007-11-05T04:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/201 "2007-11-13T14:07:59Z")
[QUOTE=9thFloor] Cool, then once again I don’t need god to discover what I value. Animals do that. [/QUOTE] I think the only way for people to pursue the truth is to be true to themselves as much as possible. That may mean being involved in religion for some and being an atheist for others. We can honor the individuals right to find their own way, even as we are dealing with the inevitable confrontation. > [@](#): > > Me neither, but it was that one movie where they’ve got the dude that can touch your temples and make you re-experience some long-ago emotional pain, etc.; and he believes that god is at a particular location beyond this particular part of space that has been previously thought to be beyond human ability to reach; so, he hijacks the ship and forces them to go there and they land and they see god face to face (a massive floating light type of thing) and Kirk is still skeptical; they blend emotional stuff with religious stuff and basically there’s a part where Kirk says “no! i need my pain, i want my pain, it makes me who i am” in an analogue to saying that i don’t need or want god’s invasion of my soul, I like myself the way I am (at least, that’s how I chose to read it 😃 ) I remember that. It may have been the first Star Trek movie which wasn’t all that good. It might be interesting to watch it again now. Funny… I might see it as saying that a God who sought to court our worship and allegiance by promises of making things much better, less struggle and pain, might not be so great after all. I suppose Blockbuster has it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/202 "2007-11-13T14:32:27Z")
I think the best way to seek truth is to look _outside_ of ourselves as much as possible. Self-deception is extremely common, and the hardest deception to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/203 "2007-11-13T14:56:58Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] (Moved the quote from the quote box so it didn’t vanish in the response.) I agree that this is a possibility, but it is a human-centric one. How do we know that we’ve fully comprehended God’s love in this scenario? Different people will certainly get different answers, and we don’t have (in this life, at least) someone scoring our paper to see how we did. [/QUOTE] We don’t have to know fully. We simply keep moving forward dealing with the experiences that come along. There are a lot of facets to the human gem that need polishing. Sometimes it’s the clash of those different answers that help us to discover the more exact common answer, if the discovery of truth is the goal rather than winning the clash. > [@](#): > > One way of telling a correct answer is to plug it in. Say you’ve been giving a long division problem, and you can’t figure out how to do it. If your friend does, by means you don’t understand, and gives you an answer, you can check it without being able to duplicate his work. If someone came up with an answer to this question, wouldn’t many or all of us say “now I get why people die!”? A typical theist response is that atheists would if we stopped being willfully blind - see **The Last Battle** for a blatant example. I don’t buy it, though. Neither do I. I think the atheist response is a reasonable one. I just don’t think they have as much dibs on logic as they sometimes think. 🙂 At some point we have have to go forward admitting we just don’t know and life still goes on. Each is free to pursue their own path to discovery and what they find to be true and valuable. Faced with tragedy or hardship we must respond and in that response we often find something meaningful. That doesn’t make the tragedy less painful. Daniel Pearl’s family started a foundation to celebrate his life and aide humanity in hopes of preventing more of what happened to him. Isn’t that an expression of love in one of it’s most noble forms? I have a Bahai friend whose young son was in a comma for four years before he died. She doesn’t know why, or what great lesson she was supposed to learn, but having faced that and survived she is able to help others in dealing with tragedy in ways I never could. Rather than being bitter and angry, which would be understandable, she remains positive and available. It is those type of examples that lead me to the conclusion that the mystery and the boundaries of love are worth pursuing. > [@](#): > > However, I will add possibility 3.5. > God loves us, in a way possibly understandable by some, but the answer is not objectively verifiable. > > Notice I agree that the process of finding the answer may not involve logic, but be purely spiritual. This seems reasonable. I think logic can be a part of it but since we are dealing with emotion and so many unknowns it’s very tricky and we must use caution when considering the logic of the argument. That’s why I say, I don’t know , is both honest and logical. > [@](#): > > But the dying person goes through suffering on the way to the afterlife. Causing unnecessary suffering, even if it will eventually be over, is not a sign of love. Plus, this scenario is the God can kill us since we’ve all got an afterlife one. That works for you a lot better than it does for your standard Christian, since many of the drowning victims were not saved, so their afterlife won’t be so pleasant. That’s one of the reasons I rejected traditional Christianity. For me the obvious premise was If God is then he loves all people equally and deals with all people equally. There are no hoops for us to jump through only the barriers we build or tear down ourselves. Since we can’t be clear on exactly what the purpose is and how we accomplish it, we can’t say what suffering is unnecessary can we? Also, I don’t think it’s about getting to an afterlife. It’s about the quality of our life as we live it moment to moment and the experiences that push us and move us. The possibility of an afterlife is just an interesting detail that doesn’t have to affect how we live in the now. It’s just that death itself cannot be seen as a horrible thing once we assume God is. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/204 "2007-11-13T15:02:25Z")
[QUOTE=9thFloor] **“That may be an interesting notion but it’s not my notion. I think the journey is about what we value and whether we embrace a certain concept of God or not is irrelevant.”** By the way, that’s interesting: so if god made himself known (not just ‘believed’) would you say that knowledge (not just belief) of god would harm or help our journey to discover what we value? Or neither? [/QUOTE] I don’t even have a guess. Would God have to make himself known every morning to the people who had dismissed that knowledge? every hour? I don’t find it all that relevant but I’m open to suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/205 "2007-11-13T15:04:13Z")
[QUOTE=9thFloor] **“But the dying person goes through suffering on the way to the afterlife. Causing unnecessary suffering, even if it will eventually be over, is not a sign of love.”** Pretty much. Now, you’ll get an argument on the meaning of the word love. Which goes to the post about retrofitting rather than changing the view in the face of new evidence. ([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9165747&postcount=122](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9165747&postcount=122) ) [/QUOTE] We’ve had enough mind reading in this thread already …thanks ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/206 "2007-11-13T18:01:31Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] The basics for me; If what we value are love and truth and the pursuit of those values is what directs us, our choices and our actions, then all the other details about God, Jesus, whether there is something after this physical life will be revealed in the appropriate moment. I don’t need to know those things to continue to act on what I value. [/QUOTE] Say you suddenly discovered, beyond doubt, that God and Jesus don’t exist. Would you stop pursuing love and truth? I rather doubt it. You act on and pursue these things for excellent reasons quite independent of the existence of deities and the possibility of the afterlife. You need to give yourself more credit for the good within, not as a goal without. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/207 "2007-11-13T18:36:44Z")
\*\*"Let me say clearly that I don’t appreciate the whole “Don’t sweat it” presentation. I get that fairly often even though that is not my meaning and I do not present it in that way. I am in no way trying to minimize suffering to force my beliefs to work. That being said, mankind endures certain hardships in order to fulfill a purpose. We have root canals and surgeries. We risk injury and our very lives sometimes just for entertainment, or sometimes for discovery."\*\* The “don’t sweat it” bit is directed at the POV’s logical position, not at you personally. Those are the 3 possibilities that logically follow, that’s all. If I’m missing another possibility aside from “I don’t know how it all works,” I’d be interested to hear it. That’s my point. The fact that suffering can be instructive is already covered by one of the 3 and shown to be either: indifferent (“don’t sweat it, you’re going to heaven”) meaningless (“you’ll learn from this…even though you’re dead now”), or callous (“others will learn and grow by your suffering”). It’s an attempt to explore the logical implications, that’s all. You don’t know, fine. It’s an attack on the callousness and heartless cruelty of the logical implications of the position, not on you personally. And by the way, my friend had both his mother and father die in his arms. One suffered while dying and one did not. He didn’t learn anything more from the suffering death than he did from the non-suffering death. Which leaves the other possibilities or, of course, the old “it’s all a mystery.” If we dismiss the insistence on a benign universe, the logic seems to dictate a not-so-nice set of realities when it comes to suffering while dying. It’s possible that that’s just what it is, no meaning whatsoever. Not a meaning that we can’t understand yet, but simply no meaning at all in fact. That could be. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/208 "2007-11-13T18:38:34Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I can see how you might think that but no. [/QUOTE] It would be nice if you’d help if you’re going to participate then and instead of just saying “no, that’s not it” educate me on what it is, succinctly. I’m glad you can see how one would think that since it’s what your earlier post seemed to indicate. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/209 "2007-11-13T18:40:41Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] The basics for me; If what we value are love and truth and the pursuit of those values is what directs us, our choices and our actions, then all the other details about God, Jesus, whether there is something after this physical life will be revealed in the appropriate moment. I don’t need to know those things to continue to act on what I value. [/QUOTE] Right, so nobody needs to believe in god. They can just value love and truth if they want to make their life about valuing love and truth. That’s true. And lovely. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/210 "2007-11-13T18:52:06Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] You’re right, there is a big difference between knowledge and belief. People say they are “sure” but act in ways that suggest they’re not. I don’t know how knowing god existed would affect humanity. Would it be better? Would we be more fearful or comforted? [/QUOTE] Nobody knows anything, of course. We just posit and hypothesize about what might be the case based on what seems reasonable. Some suppositions are more reasonable than others. And some suppositions can be logically explained and others do not comport to logic, true or not. It seems to me the only logical reason (assuming we’re trying to think it through and not including as one logical possibility “don’t know, it’s all a mystery”) for god to not make himself known are the ones discussed earlier: namely, (1) being unknown is part of the purpose of the game of life and you’re supposed to try to figure it out, or (2) it’s irrelevant (perhaps close to your view of valuing love and truth regardless), or (3) there is no god (understood in the way the word is defined in the dictionary). If I’m missing a _logical_ possibility, I’d like to know. If it’s beyond all logic, then it’s pretty much beyond all meaningful discussion. If it’s being said that “we are all god collectively and all a part of god which is not otherwise a separate entity/deity” then that’s fine, it’s just another way of stating a humanistic POV with use of the word ‘god’ which works as well without it. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/211 "2007-11-13T18:56:14Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I think the only way for people to pursue the truth is to be true to themselves as much as possible. That may mean being involved in religion for some and being an atheist for others. We can honor the individuals right to find their own way, even as we are dealing with the inevitable confrontation. I remember that. It may have been the first Star Trek movie which wasn’t all that good. It might be interesting to watch it again now. Funny… I might see it as saying that a God who sought to court our worship and allegiance by promises of making things much better, less struggle and pain, might not be so great after all. I suppose Blockbuster has it. [/QUOTE] Yeah, it was generally considered they jumped the shark on god with that one. True, and I think that was part of the point they were making that a god that courted worship and allegiance through bribery isn’t so great after all. It can therefore follow that there is no god, or at least not one worth knowing if he operates like that. Which, I believe, is what many people conclude about god. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/212 "2007-11-13T19:00:15Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] We don’t have to know fully. We simply keep moving forward dealing with the experiences that come along. There are a lot of facets to the human gem that need polishing. Sometimes it’s the clash of those different answers that help us to discover the more exact common answer, if the discovery of truth is the goal rather than winning the clash. Neither do I. I think the atheist response is a reasonable one. I just don’t think they have as much dibs on logic as they sometimes think. 🙂 At some point we have have to go forward admitting we just don’t know and life still goes on. Each is free to pursue their own path to discovery and what they find to be true and valuable. Faced with tragedy or hardship we must respond and in that response we often find something meaningful. That doesn’t make the tragedy less painful. Daniel Pearl’s family started a foundation to celebrate his life and aide humanity in hopes of preventing more of what happened to him. Isn’t that an expression of love in one of it’s most noble forms? I have a Bahai friend whose young son was in a comma for four years before he died. She doesn’t know why, or what great lesson she was supposed to learn, but having faced that and survived she is able to help others in dealing with tragedy in ways I never could. Rather than being bitter and angry, which would be understandable, she remains positive and available. It is those type of examples that lead me to the conclusion that the mystery and the boundaries of love are worth pursuing. This seems reasonable. I think logic can be a part of it but since we are dealing with emotion and so many unknowns it’s very tricky and we must use caution when considering the logic of the argument. That’s why I say, I don’t know , is both honest and logical. That’s one of the reasons I rejected traditional Christianity. For me the obvious premise was If God is then he loves all people equally and deals with all people equally. There are no hoops for us to jump through only the barriers we build or tear down ourselves. Since we can’t be clear on exactly what the purpose is and how we accomplish it, we can’t say what suffering is unnecessary can we? Also, I don’t think it’s about getting to an afterlife. It’s about the quality of our life as we live it moment to moment and the experiences that push us and move us. The possibility of an afterlife is just an interesting detail that doesn’t have to affect how we live in the now. It’s just that death itself cannot be seen as a horrible thing once we assume God is. [/QUOTE] That earlier ‘argument’ (aka ‘position’) \*\*does \*\*need to know fully in order to be a meaningful assertion. That’s the whole point of the OP as to what the definition of a meaningful assertions is. If one asserts that the god’s love and purpose are available to all of us if we try really hard and want to believe and spend our life and experiences in furtherance of that – but there’s no way of fully knowing if that’s achieved – then it’s not a meaningful assertion. If Mother Theresa died feeling that she didn’t know god’s love and purpose after having spent her life the way she did (which looks as if it might be the case from her diaries), and while wanting desperately to know god’s love and purpose, then it can be said there is no way to negate the assertion that the way to know god’s love and purpose is to want to, yearn, and live a life in furtherance of it. Therefore, it’s not an assertion at all. That’s the point of the linked article in the OP. Assertions must be negatable to be assertions. Yes, but not death itself: suffering right before death. And, as I posted earlier, it goes to the same option – specifically, that if we “can’t be clear on exactly what the purpose is and how we accomplish it, we can’t say what suffering is unnecessary can we?” then that is choosing the extra-world POV. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/213 "2007-11-13T19:11:29Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I don’t even have a guess. Would God have to make himself known every morning to the people who had dismissed that knowledge? every hour? I don’t find it all that relevant but I’m open to suggestions. [/QUOTE] Okay, if it’s not relevant I won’t spread the thread out on it. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/214 "2007-11-13T19:25:42Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] We’ve had enough mind reading in this thread already …thanks [/QUOTE] No mind reading necessary. The slippery sliding of the POV I’m referring to is well-documented (and even linked for the sake of convenience! LOL). Maybe you can try taking things less personally. I’m attacking a POV, not you; as was made clear in the other thread where I went so far as to say nice things about as much of your character as I could divine from your posts; specifically, good intentions and conversational generosity. Right before you proceeded to post a half dozen attacks about me being snide, disrespectful, etc. I have no respect for bullshit, nor should I. I can be disrespectful of a point of view (POV) without that having anything to do – particularly on an anonymous board – with respect for the other human being. So thanks for not accusing me of mind reading. I’m referring specifically to the proven course that the POV I’m referring to takes when challenged on assertions – specifically, to continue to parse definitions down to meaninglessness rather than admit that the argument has failed. I’m very familiar with it; as familiar as you think you are with atheists who claim all dibs on logic (though every single post I’ve seen in every thread thus far indicates that, quite to the contrary, non-believers are desperately seeking to employ logic to further the discussion, not claiming dibs on it. They use it as a tool. Some POVs work better with that tool than others. Those that don’t are rather moot for the purposes of a logical discussion which is what the OP is based upon.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/215 "2007-11-13T19:29:54Z")
[QUOTE=9thFloor] Yeah, it was generally considered they jumped the shark on god with that one. True, and I think that was part of the point they were making that a god that courted worship and allegiance through bribery isn’t so great after all. It can therefore follow that there is no god, or at least not one worth knowing if he operates like that. Which, I believe, is what many people conclude about god. [/QUOTE] I think you’re both referring to the fifth movie, the one directed by Shatner, which is commonly considered to not really exist, but is the result of something we collectively ate. Anyhow, it has the line “What does God need with a starship.” The first movie is the remake of The Changeling, with the Vger (Voyager) probe looking for the meaning of life and eventually transporting Captain Decker to heaven. KInd of. I know there was some plot in the fifth, but my mind exploded about the time the superannuated Nichelle Nichols did her sexy dance, and I can hardly remember anything after that. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/216 "2007-11-13T19:30:54Z")
Anyway, for those interested in a discussion based on logic _alone_ here’s my answer to the OP (which started to get derailed from the first post): So, questions for debate: 1. Is Flew’s logic sound? Does one need to make a leap of faith to believe that God is loving? Yes, Flew’s logic is sound. One does need a leap of faith to believe God is loving. It cannot be logically arrived at as the inevitable conclusion of reviewing the available evidence. 2) If the assertion “God loves us” cannot be disproven, does that nullify everything brought forward as evidence to substantiate it? Yes, it nullifies the evidence insofar as that evidence having meaning to prove the assertion since the premise is not negatable even in theory. Obviously, “God loves us” can be the truth. However, it is not a logical assertion because it cannot be negated and assertions that cannot be negated are not assertions at all in any meaningful way as Flew succinctly explains. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/217 "2007-11-13T19:32:59Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I think you’re both referring to the fifth movie, the one directed by Shatner, which is commonly considered to not really exist, but is the result of something we collectively ate. Anyhow, it has the line “What does God need with a starship.” The first movie is the remake of The Changeling, with the Vger (Voyager) probe looking for the meaning of life and eventually transporting Captain Decker to heaven. KInd of. I know there was some plot in the fifth, but my mind exploded about the time the superannuated Nichelle Nichols did her sexy dance, and I can hardly remember anything after that. [/QUOTE] ROFL. Methinks Shatner’s entire essence can be described as jumping the shark, no? I liked that movie, but you’re right; it’s one of those people wish hadn’t happened. LOL ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/218 "2007-11-13T19:39:31Z")
[QUOTE=9thFloor] Obviously, “God loves us” can be the truth. However, it is not a logical assertion because it cannot be negated and assertions that cannot be negated are not assertions at all in any meaningful way as Flew succinctly explains. [/QUOTE] That’s a perfect lead in to what I was going to post. Given the unfalsifiability of the assertion “God loves us” we can examine it using Ockham’s Razor. This doesn’t prove anything, but is a good guide. Which is the simpler explanation for what we see of the world, including natural evil, suffering, etc. Natural evil is easily explained by uncaring natural forces. Evolution has given us pain for good reasons, this unfortunately includes pain when we are dying as a side effect, since there would be no good reason to stop this pain then. Natural variance of our genetic inheritance explains why we have sociopaths and saints. Some of these answers may not be palatable, but there are no major issues. On the other hand we have the problem of a god (an issue it itself) allowing or causing pain for unfathomable reasons, none of which we are told or can deduce. I’m not sure we can expect a better attempt at an answer than **cosmosdan** has given us in this thread. Surely the naturalistic answer is simpler and more elegant. That doesn’t mean it is true, but it is certainly the way to bet. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/219 "2007-11-13T19:45:21Z")
[QUOTE=9thFloor] ROFL. Methinks Shatner’s entire essence can be described as jumping the shark, no? I liked that movie, but you’re right; it’s one of those people wish hadn’t happened. LOL [/QUOTE] Strictly speaking Star Trek jumped the shark about the time of Spock’s Brain at the beginning of the third season. Since the sixth movie was so good, I’m not sure the fifth was anything but an aberration, even if you can say that movie series can jump. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/220 "2007-11-13T20:39:16Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Wow! Go off for a weekend and see what happens. I’ll just belatedly touch on this old point:Actually, we can, since the question is whether god loves “us” - the avatars. Conflating us with the players is like confusing yourself with a marionette that you’re controlling; yes, you’re pulling the strings; no, you are not the same as the puppet. Does your mother love and care about what happens to you? Yes. Does your mother love and care about what happens to the marionette? No. Keeping in mind that in the RPG scenario, God is at _best_ ignoring us utterly, and most likely is actually laughing at our pain, reveling in our sorrow, and placing bets on our wars, I think it’s quite clear that this is not love as we know it, if it’s love at all. So, of the original list of four options: …it’s either case two or case three, depending on how depserate you are to label god’s non-protective, non-caring emotions toward us with the word “love”. Again, in this analogy we are not the actor or actress, but instead we are the character that they are playing. To look at the love had for the Player or actor is an _entirely_ different goalpost. [/QUOTE] OKay, that’s the way you meant it. For me to explain my own pov I’d have to alter it. We would b the player controlling the avatar or the actor playing the role. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261.md?page=12)