# Question for Christians: How do we know God loves us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2007, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261 "2007-11-05T04:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/101 "2007-11-11T14:31:40Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Now usually “I don’t know” is what I mean. And that’s true here also for the strict sense of know. However, my best guess is that there is no reason, not that there is an unknowable one. [/QUOTE] Both our guesses are provisional right? > [@](#): > > Those are the choices I could think of late on a Friday night, and represent the ones I’ve seen as responses. I’d be happy to hear others I didn’t think of. I believe I’ve offered some in other posts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/102 "2007-11-11T14:40:58Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Because objective evidence is not required for belief. [/QUOTE] I have beliefs, but as far as I know they are supported by objective evidence. I believe the sun will come up tomorrow based on past history and no current reports that it is about to go supernova on us. I believe the next election will be a dirty little mess based on the past history of those involved. I believe my Beloved will feed the cat this morning based on past history and because Zippy is currently licking her eyelids in an attempt to wake her up. Do you know what doesn’t require objective evidence?-blind faith, and blind faith is _not_ the same thing as belief. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/103 "2007-11-11T14:42:47Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Both our guesses are provisional right? [/quote] But with his, you keep looking for the answers, and with yours, you _don’t_. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/104 "2007-11-11T14:42:54Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I hope you don’t think I’m poking fun. I also don’t believe all arguments for religion are illogical. I’m the guy who went through **Liberal** ’s 80 step proofs. Wrong is different from illogical. [/QUOTE] No I didn’t think you were. Part of my reaction in this thread is a holdover from the other recent thread. and, although I get the feeling I may regret this, could you link to your response to **Liberal**? > [@](#): > > I also don’t assume anything. I can just try to construct arguments for me explicitly and for others sometimes based on what they say. As a programmer I take my own jumbled ideas and reduce them to code all the time. It’s something I’m good at. > So, either there is a non-logical argument (perfectly fine) or I’m missing your logical argument. Could you put it in a step by step format - no funny symbols required. Programming also has taught me that I’m wrong all the time! I hope I’ve made it clear in a previous post that I’m not arguing that we can know God loves us. as I stated in my response to **BB2**. > [@](#): > > To further clarify, my position concerning the OP. One of the reasons I didn’t enter the thread right away was because I thought the answer was obvious. > "We don’t know God loves us. We feel God loves us or we believe God loves us. The reason I did enter was the idea that human suffering and evil is some undeniably logical argument against the existence of God or God’s love is false. It isn’t. It’s the assumed logic and undeserved surety of that particular argument I am addressing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/105 "2007-11-11T14:55:37Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Noooo, I don’t _think_ so. It seems to me that some atheists are saying that, using common rules of logic and evidence that can be found in standard text books, their conclusions are more solid that those of the other side, and are still willing to ask what evidence there is and what logic is being followed by those that say that there is a God and that if she/he/it exists how do we know this entity loves us. It is dishonest to say that nobody can agree on common definitions of evidence and logic-what is happening is that the opposing side in this is _refusing to acknowledge_ these definitions in attempt to “equalize” the argument. [/QUOTE] I don’t believe that’s what was going on here and it’s not what I am addressing. ftr I’m not saying “nobody can agree on common definitions of evidence and logic” but it is true that sometimes we don’t. In order to even entertain the question in the OP an atheist has to assume a belief they don’t actually hold, isn’t that correct? Haven’t atheists in this thread already acknowledged that? I’m not refusing to acknowledge definitions of logic or evidence. I’m flat out saying that the argument offered by atheists is not logical according to the text book definition. Clear enough? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/106 "2007-11-11T14:58:08Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] I have beliefs, but as far as I know they are supported by objective evidence. I believe the sun will come up tomorrow based on past history and no current reports that it is about to go supernova on us. I believe the next election will be a dirty little mess based on the past history of those involved. I believe my Beloved will feed the cat this morning based on past history and because Zippy is currently licking her eyelids in an attempt to wake her up. Do you know what doesn’t require objective evidence?-blind faith, and blind faith is _not_ the same thing as belief. [/QUOTE] Perhaps you could provide some objective evidence that your beloved loves you in return. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/107 "2007-11-11T14:59:47Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] But with his, you keep looking for the answers, and with yours, you _don’t_. [/QUOTE] So you don’t believe in God but you believe in mind reading? Oaky Doky. Kinda shoots your logic argument all to hell doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/108 "2007-11-11T15:11:16Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] So you don’t believe in God but you believe in mind reading? Oaky Doky. Kinda shoots your logic argument all to hell doesn’t it? [/QUOTE] If you state that something is unknowable, how could we assume anything _but_ that you are not looking to know it, based on the objective evidence of your words and the dictionary definition of “unknowable”? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/109 "2007-11-11T15:35:52Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] If you state that something is unknowable, how could we assume anything _but_ that you are not looking to know it, based on the objective evidence of your words and the dictionary definition of “unknowable”? [/QUOTE] by using the dictionary definition you speak of and reading my posts. > [@](#): > > : not knowable; especially : lying beyond the limits of human experience or understanding something that is beyond the limits of our human experience and understanding _right now_, doesn’t have to remain so does it? Several of my posts indicate that. Perhaps you define “unknowable” as _never_ being knowable but I do not. Before you try reading my mind again and making fallacious statements like that one you should think about it a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/110 "2007-11-11T15:41:50Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] by using the dictionary definition you speak of and reading my posts. something that is beyond the limits of our human experience and understanding _right now_, doesn’t have to remain so does it? Several of my posts indicate that. Perhaps you define “unknowable” as _never_ being knowable but I do not. Before you try reading my mind again and making fallacious statements like that one you should think about it a bit more. [/QUOTE] And maybe you should read the dictionary definition you are quoting. Nowhere in that definition that you quote is the term _right now_-when you insert it, the definition changes from _unknowable_ to _unknown_. You are therefore creating a definition that is not in the dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/111 "2007-11-11T15:57:27Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] And maybe you should read the dictionary definition you are quoting. Nowhere in that definition that you quote is the term _right now_-when you insert it, the definition changes from _unknowable_ to _unknown_. You are therefore creating a definition that is not in the dictionary. [/QUOTE] That may make you feel better about your statement but given my posts and a minimum effort to understand them, your statement remains just as fallacious. Since the definition I quoted doesn’t contain a time frame \*\*at all \*\* including your implied “and never will be” then “for now” is just as valid a use of that definition as yours. My quote that you responded to contains the term provisional which by definition means > [@](#): > > : serving for the time being You are in error. Can’t you just say so? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/112 "2007-11-11T17:24:30Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] You are in error. Can’t you just say so? [/QUOTE] No, I think I(and the dictionary) will just have to agree to disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/113 "2007-11-11T17:36:12Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] No, I think I(and the dictionary) will just have to agree to disagree with you. [/QUOTE] If that’s how you want it. I’ll keep that in mind the next time you insinuate intellectual dishonesty on my part. btw, I notice you ignored my request for objective evidence that your beloved loves you in return. Did you have a response? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/114 "2007-11-11T17:50:09Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] If that’s how you want it. I’ll keep that in mind the next time you insinuate intellectual dishonesty on my part. [/quote] I insinuated nothing-I merely pointed out where you and the dictionary parted company. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > btw, I notice you ignored my request for objective evidence that your beloved loves you in return. > > Did you have a response? Direct testimony from Beloved to me, and(if you want to get petty) she is willing to sign a statement to the effect. She has put up with my constant snoring, and has kept me on a diet that prolongs my life, despite an insurance policy that would pay off handsomely if I left this mortal coil. She has stayed to watch my dvd of _Xanadu_ multiple times instead of going off to read a book. Need more? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/115 "2007-11-11T18:21:17Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] She has stayed to watch my dvd of _Xanadu_ multiple times instead of going off to read a book. [/QUOTE] Oh, my. If this isn’t proof of love, I don’t think _anything_ is. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/116 "2007-11-11T18:31:01Z")
[QUOTE=Digital Stimulus] Oh, my. If this isn’t proof of love, I don’t think _anything_ is. 😉 [/QUOTE] To be fair, it could also be evidence of an S&M type of relationship. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/117 "2007-11-11T18:33:54Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] I insinuated nothing-I merely pointed out where you and the dictionary parted company. [/QUOTE] I was referring to this > [@](#): > > It is dishonest to say that nobody can agree on common definitions of evidence and logic- I’ve also _correctly_ pointed out that “unknowable” by itself has no time stipulations either way. Those are supplied within the context of it’s use. The context of my use was abundantly clear and yet you’d rather ignore that than admit a mistake. It doesn’t matter to me…I’m just saying. > [@](#): > > Direct testimony from Beloved to me, and(if you want to get petty) she is willing to sign a statement to the effect. She has put up with my constant snoring, and has kept me on a diet that prolongs my life, despite an insurance policy that would pay off handsomely if I left this mortal coil. She has stayed to watch my dvd of _Xanadu_ multiple times instead of going off to read a book. Need more? No that’s just right. You might notice that this is exactly the kind of evidence a believer might give you and you would summarily dismiss as inadequate. This provides no clear objective proof of her true motives. You believe this is love because it serves your preferred belief system and I expect brings you comfort and joy to believe so. I sincerely hope you are exactly right. Love is much better than any alternative IMO. I might point out that more than one man or woman has believed the same evidence you do only to discover they were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/118 "2007-11-11T18:39:36Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] No that’s just right. You might notice that this is exactly the kind of evidence a believer might give you and you would summarily dismiss as inadequate. [/QUOTE] Excuse me while I pick my jaw up from the floor. A believer can provide sworn testimony or a signed statement directly from God? In what possible way are you defining “exactly” and “evidence” here? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/119 "2007-11-11T18:42:16Z")
BTW, “unknown” and “unknowable” _still_ have different meanings in every dictionary I’ve found so far. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261/120 "2007-11-11T19:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Excuse me while I pick my jaw up from the floor. A believer can provide sworn testimony or a signed statement directly from God? In what possible way are you defining “exactly” and “evidence” here? [/QUOTE] You can cite your beloveds behavior and interpret that to mean love based on your own subjective concept of love. What you cannot do is provide conclusive objective evidence for her true motives, or even that your concept of love is indeed love. If a believer says “I felt God’s love when I read John 3:16” you’ll dismiss it as nonsense. If a believer says “I felt God’s love when when I saw a sunrise”, the same, etc etc. No amount of agreement by other believers will be accepted by you as objective conclusive evidence. The same goes for your subjective concept of love and your evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-christians-how-do-we-know-god-loves-us/425261.md?page=7)