# Question for grammarians - whence or from whence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 8, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568 "2002-04-08T22:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/1 "2002-04-08T22:28:24Z")
[Merriam-Webster online](http://www.m-w.com) says that “whence” can mean “from where”. Over in another thread, I meant to ask someone “From where are you posting?” So I said “Whence are you posting?” Should that be “_From_ whence are you posting?” I’m hoping it’s the former, because that sounds more formal and stilted, and I like sentences that make you think “there’s something wrong there”, even though the sentences is grammatically correct. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/2 "2002-04-08T22:40:06Z")
Just whence. English had a set of words for “from x” as well as “to x”. From where = whence From here = hence From there = thence However most people use “from whence” and it is understod so there’s no problem using it. Except you don’t get the effect you want. The -ither words are the “to x” set IIRC from Semantics last semester. ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/3 "2002-04-08T22:48:53Z")
[Bartleby.com](http://www.bartleby.com/cgi-bin/texis/webinator/sitesearch?filter=colUsage&query=whence&submit=Go) seems to indicate that both are correct. From [The American Heritage® Book of English Usage (1996)](http://www.bartleby.com/64/C002/019.html), the first source in the above link: > [@](#): > > Language critics have attacked the construction _from whence_ as redundant since the 18th century, and it is true that _whence_ itself incorporates the sense of from, as in a remote village, whence little news reached the wider world. But _from whence_ has been used steadily by reputable writers since the 14th century, most notably in the King James Bible: “I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help” (Psalm 121). It is hard to label as incorrect a construction with such a respectable record of usage. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/4 "2002-04-08T23:00:33Z")
I was just going to say that it was redundant but not _wrong_. I see that description would apply to myself as well. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/5 "2002-04-08T23:25:33Z")
“From whence” is simply wrong, based on etymology, and always sets my teeth on edge when I read it. Linguistically I tend to be more of the descriptionist rather than prescriptionist persuasion, so ordinarily I might be tempted go along with American Heritage’s contention that a phrase that has been used wrongly for such a long time and so persistently has acquired some standing. However, since the main point of using a word like “whence” in the first place is to sound pedantic, I would say you can’t go wrong correcting anyone who says “from whence,” preferably in as condescending a tone as possible. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/6 "2002-04-09T00:07:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Tim \* > \*\*Just whence. > > English had a set of words for “from x” as well as “to x”. > > From where = whence > From here = hence > From there = thence > > However most people use “from whence” and it is understod so there’s no problem using it. Except you don’t get the effect you want. > > The -ither words are the “to x” set IIRC from Semantics last semester. \*\* Hither, thither, and whither–three of my favorite words in the language. ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/7 "2002-04-09T01:17:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > \*\*“From whence” is simply wrong, based on etymology, and always sets my teeth on edge when I read it. > Linguistically I tend to be more of the descriptionist rather than prescriptionist persuasion, so ordinarily I might be tempted go along with American Heritage’s contention that a phrase that has been used wrongly for such a long time and so persistently has acquired some standing. However, since the main point of using a word like “whence” in the first place is to sound pedantic, I would say you can’t go wrong correcting anyone who says “from whence,” preferably in as condescending a tone as possible. \*\* Somebody saying “from whence” is likely to be learning an appreciation for Elizabethan English. So we ought to be encouraging. 100 years ago, people might have used “from whence” in affectation of culture. In that case, why bother confronting them? (They ARE dead.) They’d just shift their affectations elsewhere, imagining they were under scrutiny. I feel _American Heritage_ is wrong on this, and in this small sense so are the descriptivists. Saying “Sahara Desert” demonstrates the speaker’s ignorance to millions of Africans. I think the dictionary missed a beat, here. I’d prefer not to say anything that appeared laughable and insensitive to an entire continent. Unless, of course… ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/8 "2002-04-09T01:48:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > … since the main point of using a word like “whence” in the first place is to sound pedantic, I would say you can’t go wrong correcting anyone who says “from whence,” preferably in as condescending a tone as possible. Are you calling me a pedant? Come hither and repeat that! 🙂 Ok, whence, hence, thence, whither, hither, thither are now going to be part of my regular SDMB vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/9 "2002-04-09T19:41:03Z")
By coincidence, I checked out this very issue yesterday and came up with the same answer as Kamandi and the others: it’s a tad redundant, but no big deal. I prefer _whence_ but if someone uses _from whence_ I’m probably not going to whine at him. Unless I feel like it. 😛 > [@](#): > > Hither, thither, and whither–three of my favorite words in the language. What about _yon_? RR BTW, weren’t the smilies formerly all yellow, or have I just been blind to their colors all this time? ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/10 "2002-04-09T21:03:15Z")
Somebody shouldda told John Cougar Melencamp about this issue . . . _singing_ Though I cannot forget from whence it is that I come from . . . ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/11 "2002-04-09T21:19:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RiverRunner \* > **What about _yon_?** Yep, that too–even thought about bringing it up, but you beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/12 "2002-04-09T22:16:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\* > > Are you calling me a pedant? Come hither and repeat that! 🙂 > \*\* Come now, Arnold! You say that like being a pedant was a _bad_ thing! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/13 "2002-04-09T22:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RiverRunner \* > BTW, weren’t the smilies formerly all yellow, or have I just been blind to their colors all this time? You should check out ATMB once in a while. There’s some good information yon. [The great smiley changeover!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=108043) ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/14 "2002-04-09T23:15:18Z")
Can we get a ruling on an Administrator contributing to the hijack of his own thread? Acceptable, or should he be flogged with a dead carp? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/15 "2002-04-10T03:01:15Z")
Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary 1913 Whence (Whence) adv. [OE. whennes, whens (with adverbial s, properly a genitive ending; — see -wards), also whenne, whanene, AS. hwanan, hwanon, hwonan, hwanone; akin to D. when. See When, and cf. Hence, Thence.] 1. From what place; hence, from what or which source, origin, antecedent, premise, or the like; how; — used interrogatively. Matt. xiii. 54. ``` Whence and what art thou? ``` Milton. 1. From what or which place, source, material, cause, etc.; the place, source, etc., from which; — used relatively. Milton. All the words of this class, whence, where, whither, whereabouts, etc., are occasionally used as pronouns by a harsh construction. ``` O, how unlike the place from whence they fell? ``` Milton. **From whence, though a pleonasm, is fully authorized by the use of good writers.** ``` From whence come wars and fightings among you? ``` James iv. 1. Of whence, also a pleonasm, has become obsolete. ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/16 "2002-04-10T04:27:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > \*\*Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary 1913 > > … > > 1. From what place; hence, from what or which source, origin, antecedent, premise, or the like; how; — used interrogatively. > > Matt. xiii. 54. > > ``` > Whence and what art thou? > > ``` > > . \*\* I don’t think dictionaries should quote the Bible, or any other work not in it’s original language. Seems quite contrary to the purpose of producing really illustrative examples. Any word that’s translated is a at best a close approximation of its full connotation in the original language. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/17 "2002-04-10T05:03:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > \*\* > > I don’t think dictionaries should quote the Bible, or any other work not in it’s original language. Seems quite contrary to the purpose of producing really illustrative examples. Any word that’s translated is a at best a close approximation of its full connotation in the original language. \*\* The King James Bible stands on its own as a tremendously influential work of literature, and also as an example of usage during the period in which it was written. Thus it is an extremely good work for dictionaries to cite when trying to identify how and when words and phrases were used. That it was never intended to be a strictly literal translation has nothing to do with its use by dictionaries. ---
**Author:** ![Peregrine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a6a055/32.png) [@Peregrine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peregrine)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/18 "2002-04-10T15:14:38Z")
I also think of the wherefore/herefore/therefore series in this connection. Herefore is obsolete, but the relation still holds: for what reason/for this reason/for that reason. It’s useful for explaining to people that _wherefore_ does NOT mean _where_, darn it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/19 "2002-04-10T15:33:10Z")
Of course the most common example of the misunderstanding of “Wherefore art thou Romeo,” in Juliet’s balcony speech. Most people assume it means “Where are you, Romeo?” when it actually means “_Why_ are you Romeo?” > [@](#): > > **From whence, though a pleonasm, is fully authorized by the use of good writers.** So because good writers have misused a word in the past, that “authorizes” its misuse in the future? 😕 (“Pleonasm” simply being a pedantic term for “redundant.” ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568/20 "2002-04-10T15:44:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > **So because good writers have misused a word in the past, that “authorizes” its misuse in the future? 😕** Sure. That’s one way languages evolve. The misuse of a word may become so popular that it supplants its proper use. (Geez, what a clumsy sentence to put in a thread about language. :o ) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-grammarians-whence-or-from-whence/102568.md?page=2)