# Question for Jewish Dopers: Does a synagogue have to be subjected to any ritual before it can be used for something else? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 29, 2023, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837 "2023-11-29T05:12:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/21 "2023-11-29T21:45:30Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > yes, I know that not all churches are built that way, But many are. Okay, but you originally said they “must” be shaped like a cross. I was going to comment on this but he beat me to it. “Typically,” “commonly,” “conventionally,” sure. Must? No. > [@psychonaut](#): > > There’s a long tradition of round churches—the Aachen Cathedral is one example Thanks for mentioning this. The cathedral in Aachen is _gorgeous,_ absolutely spectacular (and with a genuinely interesting historical pedigree to boot). Well worth a visit for anyone in the area. Town’s pretty cute, too. Nice Christmas markets. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/22 "2023-11-29T22:43:47Z")
Now that you mention the YMHA (Young Men’s Hebrew Association) I’ve heard of those too. Yes, nowadays the Y is a secular organization, which is why it’s been renamed just the Y. I do remember the old YMCA and YWCA buildings that had housing, usually for single people who were new to town at one time, or in many cases more recently just got out of prison or who would otherwise be homeless. I asked if this Y would have any housing, and they said they wouldn’t, although they would certainly refer people to local agencies if they needed that service. They also told me that there was a hard-to-access quasi-apartment that at one time was occupied by a caretaker, who lived there rent-free in exchange for doing that. There was no way they could bring it up to current codes without spending more money than they could ever recoup, and decided the most likely future use for it would be long-term or archival storage. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/23 "2023-11-30T09:21:20Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Okay, but you originally said they “must” be shaped like a cross. I was going to comment on this but he beat me to it. “Typically,” “commonly,” “conventionally,” sure. Must? No. Me too. In fact in my experience the answer to ‘what’s that weird-shaped building over there?’ often turns out to be ‘ohhhh, it’s a Catholic church/cathedral’ ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/24 "2023-11-30T21:06:13Z")
Many Catholic churches here are relatively modern-build and quite a lot are very untraditional-looking. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/25 "2023-11-30T23:37:24Z")
Houses of worship in general seem to be the same way nowadays, and a lot of it is to be in compliance with modern building codes and ADA regulations. The synagogue-turned-Y is on 3 levels and had to put in an elevator. TBH, I was surprised they didn’t already have one. It did have ramps, both inside and out. My BFF, a lifelong Catholic, recently mourned the destruction of the church he attended as a child. However, inspectors found black mold, and even if it hadn’t been for that, retrofitting it would have cost more than tearing it down and constructing a modern building. They did offer fixtures for sale, and I think the HFH chapter in a nearby college town took some copper pipes, doors, and other things they could use or sell. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/26 "2023-12-01T00:46:15Z")
In Los Angeles, they had to build a new cathedral when the old one was damaged in the 1994 Northridge earthquake. Here’s the old one: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Saint_Vibiana%27s_Church.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Saint_Vibiana%27s_Church.jpg) And here’s the new one: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Los_Angeles_Cathedral.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Los_Angeles_Cathedral.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/27 "2023-12-01T02:05:37Z")
Not a fan of that new cathedral. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/28 "2023-12-01T07:44:11Z")
It was very controversial when the design was made public, and when under construction. But in the 20 years that it’s been around, people have gotten used to it. The Archdiocese of Los Angeles specifically wanted a modern design to indicate the Church was with the times. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/29 "2023-12-01T19:29:04Z")
The cross design for cathedrals (and indeed, many churches) was a mostly medieval tradition. The cross motif is obvious. The assorted parts of the ceremonies and their participants was determined in part by the fact this was a common layout. (Choir off to the side, altar in the nave, altar rail, tabernacle to the right, two towers surrounding the entrance, etc.) Churches such as Haiga Sophia (a cathedral before it was made a mosque) are more in the round tradition and Orthodox seem to follow a different tradition. But it’s a tradition, not a fixed rule. There’s a similar tradition for mosques, with facing Mecca, the steps to the pulpit(?) for the imam, etc. Which brings up the question - is there a traditional pattern for synagogues, or was it simply any shape of meeting hall? The cathedrals are huge and ornate because this was the crown jewel, so to speak, of official state religion in the middle ages and so something where much money and effort was spent. (As someone remarked about touring historical Europe, “it was an ABC tour - Another Bloody Cathedral, Another Bloody Castle…”) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/30 "2023-12-01T20:47:47Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Which brings up the question - is there a traditional pattern for synagogues, or was it simply any shape of meeting hall? The cathedrals are huge and ornate because this was the crown jewel, so to speak, of official state religion in the middle ages and so something where much money and effort was spent. There were, in fact, (relatively) big and ornate Jewish temples built in places like Jerusalem: > **[Second Temple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple)** > > The Second Temple (Hebrew: בֵּית־הַמִּקְדָּשׁ‎ הַשֵּׁנִי‎, Bēṯ hamMīqdāš hašŠēnī, transl. 'Second House of the Sanctum'), later known as Herod's Temple, was the reconstructed Temple in Jerusalem between c. 516 BCE and 70 CE. It stood as a pivotal symbol of Jewish faith and identity during the Second Temple period. The Second Temple served as the central place of Jewish worship, ritual sacrifice, and communal gathering for Jews, attracting Jewish pilgrims from distant lands during the three pilgri... Eventually Rabbinical Judaism began to gain ground (so much so that today it is the first kind of Judaism people think of) and synagogues. > [@](#): > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > **Synagogue architecture** often follows styles in vogue at the place and time of construction. There is no set blueprint for synagogues and the architectural shapes and interior designs of synagogues vary greatly. According to tradition, the Shekhinah or divine presence can be found wherever there is a _minyan,_ a quorum, of ten. A synagogue always contains an Torah ark where the Torah scrolls are kept, called the _aron qodesh_ (Hebrew: אָרוֹן קׄדֶש) by Ashkenazi Jews and the _hekhal_ (היכל) by Sephardic Jews. > > Synagogues are buildings for congregational worship, and thus require a large central space (as do churches and mosques. They are generally designed with the Torah ark at one end, typically opposite the main entrance, and a _bimah_ either in front of that, or more centrally placed. Raised galleries, usually for female worshipers, have been common. Beyond these points, there is little that dictates the design. Historically, synagogues were normally built in a version of the prevailing architectural style of their time and place. Thus, the synagogue in Kaifeng, China looked very like Chinese temples of that region and era, with its outer wall and open garden in which several buildings were arranged. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/31 "2023-12-01T21:20:49Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Which brings up the question - is there a traditional pattern for synagogues, or was it simply any shape of meeting hall? The orthodox synagogue my grandfather was president of was built in 1927 in a traditional Sephardic style: [![](https://kievershul.com/images/lit_shul.jpg) ](https://kievershul.com/images/lit_shul.jpg) The men sat down stairs, the women on the balcony. The bima is raised in the centre of the congregation. In stark comparison, my Reform synagogue was built 10 years later and modeled on Temple Emanu-El in Manhattan but known derogatorily as the Church on the Hill: [![](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.26843a6861e9b3314f015eb884d8bfc7?rik=q2K1bR5Axspw3g&riu=http%3a%2f%2faestheticgrounds.com%2fwp-content%2fgallery%2fholy-blossom-temple%2fPeter-Dusek-21-Peter-Dusek-22-DUSEK_0118.jpg&ehk=BEB9%2f0jaN2iNVot%2bOzJMUX3KPrgxfcLLjXrOrTIfORk%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0) ](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.26843a6861e9b3314f015eb884d8bfc7?rik=q2K1bR5Axspw3g&riu=http%3a%2f%2faestheticgrounds.com%2fwp-content%2fgallery%2fholy-blossom-temple%2fPeter-Dusek-21-Peter-Dusek-22-DUSEK_0118.jpg&ehk=BEB9%2f0jaN2iNVot%2bOzJMUX3KPrgxfcLLjXrOrTIfORk%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0) ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/32 "2023-12-01T21:38:48Z")
Here’s a picture of the Great Synagogue of Budapest, the largest synagogue in Europe. My Dad went there as a child. It is in Moorish Revival style. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Synagogue-Budapest.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Synagogue-Budapest.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/33 "2023-12-02T06:38:27Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > A friend of mine wanted to turn an old synagogue into a nightclub and call it ‘synagogo’. In my city one of the original synagogues, built in 1870, was converted into a nightclub. For a decade or so it was called simply “The Synagogue” and sported a neon Star of David. It changed its name more recently but is still a nightclub. The building itself is heritage listed. The current interior is described as “decadent”. Back when it was still The Synagogue I saw some pretty good music there. I was never into the nightclub scene, but the occasional touring band would play there. Saw Charlie Hunter there, which was pretty fabulous. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/34 "2023-12-03T16:07:07Z")
AFAIK Catholic churches have to be “deconsecrated” by a ceremony with the local bishop(?). Not sure how involved it is. Do other sects have similar ceremonies? I don’t see some of the Protestant sects being anywhere as organized or dogmatic… I find this for example, about the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul (not Constantinople…) > It became a museum in 1935 after the decision of the secularist Turkish government under Kemal Atatürk in 1934. In July 2020, the Islamist Turkish government under Tayyip Erdoğan ordered the Hagia Sophia to be turned back into a mosque following a supreme court annulment of a 1934 presidential decree that made it a museum. Seems all it took was a government decree each way? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837/35 "2023-12-03T22:14:13Z")
The Temple in Jerusalem (the Beis HaMikdash) was not a synagogue in the sense that we have it today and calling it an “ornate” Temple as compared to today’s is misleading. It was a place where sacrifices were brought and other religious rituals were performed, but it was not a regular place for prayer, community meetings and other functions that synagogues and temples perform today and have for the last 1800 or so years. Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers-does-a-synagogue-have-to-be-subjected-to-any-ritual-before-it-can-be-used-for-something-else/993837.md?page=1)