# Question for Jewish Dopers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 10, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944 "2004-11-10T01:01:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/41 "2004-11-10T16:32:54Z")
> [@Rufus Xavier](#): > > I, too, thought it was a joke. I smiled, anyway, at what appeared to be a clever play on words. > … > Interestingly, you can say a Jew is Jewish, but you can’t say a Cath is Catholic, nor is ‘Prot’ a term for Protestant and you can’t call a Muslim ‘a Muz’. Hmmmm… The Irish Catholic called Protestants “Prods”, so you got that. And thanks for getting the humor. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/42 "2004-11-10T17:56:26Z")
> [@TV time](#): > > I have always been uncomfortable about that (use of the word Jewess). That being said, my favorite female character in literature is Sir Walter Scott’s “Dark-eyed Jewess” in _Ivanhoe_. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/43 "2004-11-10T17:56:53Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > half based on my B-I-L’s mom’s catty attitude that my sister is still a shiksa Probably a vestige of the idea that Jews are literally all descended from Israel (Jacob), which is why some Jewish traditions discourage conversion. The idea being that the covenant with Abraham applies to his descendants, not just any old folk who choose to follow the Law. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/44 "2004-11-10T20:19:53Z")
The way I explained to my (sort of) well-meaning roommates who asked the same question was: ‘Jew’ as a verb is offensive. ‘Jew’ as an adjective (i.e. ‘Jew money’, ‘Jew’ lawyer’) is offensive. ‘Jew’ as a noun is fine! (re: Jewess, that just sounds medieval, and a bit creepy) Also, I have to admit that seeing ‘jew’ de-capitalised, irks me. Especially if other religious terms are regularly capped. But I feel like it is a matter of respect to capitalise words like ‘Jew’, ‘Jewish’, ‘Christian’, ‘Muslim’, and so on. Cheers, Daphne ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/45 "2004-11-10T20:22:50Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > My personal view is that the term “Jew” describes someone ethnically and spiritually Jewish, with cultural and family ties to Judaism. The term “Jewish” expands that definition to include converts to Judaism (of which I have two in my extended family, commentary on the Vatican, perhaps?). I understand you approach, but it’s not the way I see it. Once someone converts, they are a “Jew” in all ways. If someone is adopted, raised Catholic, and later discovers that their mother was Jewish, then I’d think of them as a Jew in the same way. Not to say the cultural parts aren’t important, but I share them with many people who grew up in NYC and aren’t Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/46 "2004-11-10T21:22:05Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Hebrew has no gender-neutral grammatical forms, so there’s a separate word “Yehudi” and “Yehudis”. Nitpick - “Yehudiyah” is the more common usage. I suppose “Yehudit” is grammtically correct, but I’ve never heard it used except as a name (the Hebrew version of “Judith”). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/47 "2004-11-10T22:46:20Z")
> [@OxyMoron](#): > > I’d be curious what the various stylebooks have to say about it - A.P., New York Times, etc. The only style book I have on my desk is the 13th edition of Chicago Manual of Style. It does not specify Jew/Jewish person or Prod/Protestant person in section 7.74 Religious Names and Terms. Neither term, nor Muslim, is in the index. Anybody else got a style guide in arm’s reach? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/48 "2004-11-10T23:25:30Z")
The PC media style guide of choice is the [Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide)’s, but it has no mention of Jew and little on Muslim, only talking about spellings of Muhammed. However, I suspect they may be making the assumption that anybody smart enough to use a style guide knows that identifying any person or group solely by religion is an possibly inaccurate, heavily misleading and potentially offensive approach. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/49 "2004-11-10T23:30:40Z")
Alessan: > [@](#): > > Nitpick - “Yehudiyah” is the more common usage. I suppose “Yehudit” is grammtically correct, but I’ve never heard it used except as a name (the Hebrew version of “Judith”). Duly noted. The form “Yehudis” is probably more Biblical/Talmudic Hebrew, with “Yehudiyah” being modern Hebrew. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/50 "2004-11-11T02:16:00Z")
> [@OxyMoron](#): > > I’d be curious what the various stylebooks have to say about it - A.P., New York Times, etc. The only thing my AP Stylebook says is: > [@](#): > > **Jew** Use for men and women. Do not use _Jewess_ It then goes on to explain Jewish organizations and Jewish congregations. The implications, at least to me, is that if the article “a” is in front of it and it is used as a personal noun, it is “Jew.” If it is an adjective, or it is an abstract noun it is “Jewish.” ---
**Author:** ![adirondack\_mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@adirondack\_mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adirondack_mike)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/51 "2004-11-11T02:38:06Z")
From Leo Rosten in “the Joys of Yiddish” > [@](#): > > Yid pronounced YEED, to rhyme with “deed.” (If you pronounce it YID, to rhyme with "did,… “YID” is offensive-and the way anti-Semites pronounce it.) Yid is of course Jewish for Jew. Jewish is a poor english translation of Yiddish. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/52 "2004-11-11T06:03:53Z")
> [@Mithril](#): > > Ah, confirmation of Catholic teaching! Maybe it dates back to before the Pope forgave (here it comes!) Jews for crucifying Jesus. As far as official Catholicism… From the [Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm): > [@](#): > > 423 We believe and confess that Jesus of Nazareth, **born a Jew** of a daughter of Israel at Bethlehem at the time of King Herod the Great and the emperor Caesar Augustus, a carpenter by trade, who died crucified in Jerusalem under the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of the emperor Tiberius, is the eternal Son of God made man. He ‘came from God’, ‘descended from heaven’, and ‘came in the flesh’. For 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. . . And from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace. [emphasis added] Jesus is also referred to as “a Jew” in paragraph #531. And not only that, but in scripture, ‘Jew’ and ‘Jews’ is used quite regularly (in both positive and negative light). St. Paul writes in Galatians 3:27-28 > [@](#): > > “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” And in Romans: > [@](#): > > 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile … 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. So, one can not really go by Catholic volunteers in children’s religious education classes as the official word on Catholic belief or practice; or how the RCC refers to the Judaists. ## Peace. This way to the egress. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/53 "2004-11-11T06:20:39Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > Judaists. The odd thing is that this makes sense. Followers of Judaism=Judaists. Of course that makes it sound like we worship Judah instead of descending from him. Then again, so does the word Judaism. This is what comes from worshipping a deity with a name nobody can pronounce. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/54 "2004-11-11T06:46:35Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The odd thing is that this makes sense. Followers of Judaism=Judaists. Of course that makes it sound like we worship Judah instead of descending from him. Then again, so does the word Judaism. This is what comes from worshipping a deity with a name nobody can pronounce. Yahwists. Many biblical scholars use this term all the time. Judaists are Yahwists, but not all Yahwists are Judaists. Shalom. ---
**Author:** ![Mithril](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mithril/32/3517_2.png) [@Mithril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithril)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/55 "2004-11-11T14:49:02Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > Jesus is also referred to as “a Jew” in paragraph #531. And not only that, but in scripture, ‘Jew’ and ‘Jews’ is used quite regularly (in both positive and negative light). You’re right, of course. We were also taught that Jesus was a Jew - to the point that in my practicing days, I had thought about trying to follow all the Jewish kosher laws, but I just didn’t know where to begin. Early Christians were by large Jews who celebrated the Jewish Sabbath, then had the Christian one the next day. There are a lot of things that are taught by laymen in Catholic schools that aren’t part of the true doctrine. I’m sure the doctrine never specifically said to hate Jews, but think about all the Catholic anti-Semitism that abounded in, let’s say, NYC in the forties and fifties (I specifically mention that time and place because I just read a book set then). While most priests weren’t preaching intolerance (I hope), it was widely accepted that the Jews were beneath Catholics. Perhaps the schoolteachers wanting us to refer to Jews as Jewish people was merely a backlash from the recent times of great intolerance. It wouldn’t be official Catholic doctrine, of course, but it could be some sort of sensitivity training that they had. Or, just personal sensitivity, which is hard to believe given my teacher, but I suppose it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![jgroub](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@jgroub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jgroub)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/56 "2004-11-12T00:37:04Z")
I think it is sort of slightly offensive to call someone a Jew. This isn’t so much PC as it is just a reflection of the history of the use of the word: Jew bastard, Jew York City, etc. It’s not pretty. For example, as someone upthread said, any sentence starting with "The Jews . . . " usually does not end well, unless it’s a discussion of theology. The easily imaginable innocuous context is “Are you a Jew?” or “You’re a Jew?” and even that has a vaguely offensive subtext to it. For some reason, Jewish just seems more polite. There is a difference between saying “The Poles elected a President today.” and “The Jews bought 24 F-16s from the United States.” Jew only refers to a religious (or ethnic) group, and not a country. That said, it does depend on context. It’s sort of like the N-word: other Jews can call each other Jews, close friends can call Jews Jews, but other than that, it’s Jewish, thank you very much. Of course, someone can simply volunteer “I’m Jewish” and that isn’t offensive at all. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944/57 "2004-11-12T01:14:27Z")
> [@jgroub](#): > > That said, it does depend on context. It’s sort of like the N-word: other Jews can call each other Jews, close friends can call Jews Jews, but other than that, it’s Jewish, thank you very much. Of course, someone can simply volunteer “I’m Jewish” and that isn’t offensive at all. There’s a Jewish magazine by and for American Generation X Jews entitled Heeb. An article in one issue mentioned an organization for Jewish lesbians. The group calls itself Orthodykes. The only word I haven’t seen Jews using casually is kike. I expect that to happen fairly soon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-jewish-dopers/273944.md?page=2)