# Question for liberal dopers age 50 to 55 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162 "2005-07-26T02:38:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/101 "2005-07-27T16:53:44Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Bullshit. There were Whitewater claims - I remember them - that Clinton had people killed to cover up financial misdealings - which were never proved either (not for lack of trying). That would be the Falwell/Robertson videotape [The Clinton Chronicles](http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2917/clinton.html). You’ve forgotten the drugrunning charge, though. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/102 "2005-07-27T16:54:51Z")
> [@Tim Staab](#): > > The letter certainly contains a form of the phrase Shodan referred to, and could easily be paraphrased as saying “I and others have come to love our country and loathe the military.” Easily, but not automatically. I’ve read that letter dozens of times since I first saw it, and it boils down to a kid who loves his nation deeply, has a strong sense of patriotic obligation and duty . . . and yet believes without doubt that Vietnam is a charlie foxtrot of the first order and morally wrong to boot. He might loathe the military, or he might simply be sympathetic to those who so. Regardless, it’s been used for some time as yet another piece of “evidence” used to support some folks’ predetermined belief that Clinton is scum. And I find that a terrible shame. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/103 "2005-07-27T17:29:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That would be the Falwell/Robertson videotape [The Clinton Chronicles](http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2917/clinton.html). You’ve forgotten the drugrunning charge, though. I got a kick out of the heading… “NEW WORLD ORDER INTELLIGENCE UPDATE”. Wasn’t that a phrase used a lot by Nazis during World War 2? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/104 "2005-07-27T17:34:51Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Bullshit. There were Whitewater claims - I remember them - that Clinton had people killed to cover up financial misdealings - which were never proved either (not for lack of trying). But **Steve** , proof isn’t necessary. The accusation is enough. We saw that with your accusations against Bush regarding cocaine. Ergo, Clinton is guilty. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/105 "2005-07-27T17:39:53Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Easily, but not automatically. I agree. I just felt that the poster’s claim was a bit overstated, and wanted to point out that there is at least some foundation for **Shodan** ’s claim. Also, the impression one gets from the entire letter depends to a large extent, I think, on one’s political leanings and personal feelings about many things. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/106 "2005-07-27T17:40:36Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > There is considerable evidence that we DID win the 2000 election. It was stolen. That’s another problem the Dems have to contend with – we have to realize that the Pubbies are WAAAY past “hardball” politics and into Third World Banana Republican election stealing. It’s not enough to be dishonorable ourselves – we have to figure out how to protect the democratic process itself from the Republicans. To hear what’s coming out of Washington, I don’t think the Dem leadership has a clue on this point. For hardened pols, they’re strangely blase about the evidence that the Pubbies can win elections without actually, um, winning the elections. 2000 shouldn’t have even been a close election. When you let it get that close, little shit like a badly designed ballot or some hanging chads suddenly becomes the most important thing in the election. It’s like in sport, allowing your opponent to catch up at the end of the game, then complaining that one bad call cost you the championship. You want to say it was stolen, fine. Gore should have stomped Bush’s head into the ground, but he let him in the game, and got burnt. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/107 "2005-07-27T17:50:05Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Did Bush spend much time responding when faced with crap like this? It seemed to magically slide off of him. > > A campaign moving forward and engaging voters will not have to deal much with this crap. A campaign playing defensive ball will. Gore and Kerry played a lot of defensive ball. > > I can understand why they did so, as a lot of their positions can’t be sold outright to the American public - they must be snuck in. Gore and Kerry are running in a more conservative America now, and they are more liberal than Bill Clinton was. They also don’t have the benefit of running with a strong third party effort going on, as Clinton did. > > That may mean that the Democratic Party needs to move right to win, a remedy I have prescribed before. This hasn’t been a popular solution to the partisans on this board, though. But you had to sign a loyalty oat to attend a Bush rally. And yes, Bush, and his team, dealt with that stuff. But some how the lie-bral media spent all their time talking about the Swifties or Dan Rather. The Dems don’t have to move to the right to win. They have to move back to the working man. They also have to define themselves instead of letting the Repblicans do it for them. Gore and Kerry had to contend with Nader. (and Buchannon) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/108 "2005-07-27T18:06:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > SteveG1: > > Even if it is true that they would have backed off if asked–and I don not grant that for a minute–isn’t it possible that their allegations were true? > > And please explain this: Why would men who have served their country do honorably, and many of whom were not highly political, decide, en masse, to fabricate such stories. And before you asnswer, let me just ask, you do know some of them were democrats, right? Absolutely not possible, and their claims were refuted on televisionand elsewhere in print. They got spanked and were exposed for the liars they are. When there is money, I guess honor goes by the wayside. Some of these people had been connected to earlier similar tactics here and there, but I can’t find the printout right now. Below are direct quotes that may be interesting. From Joshua Micah Marshall, 24 August 2004 - “If President Bush wants to tell the Swift Boat group’s founder, Bob Perry, that he doesn’t like the ads he’s paying for, maybe he can have Rove bring it up with him at the fundraiser Perry is cohosting in New York next week”… “it is an example of the president’s moral cowardice that he has such a long record of having others savfage his opponent – for sins of which he is usually more guilty than they – and then denying responsibility for what’s happening. It’s like the moment captured in the recent Kerry campaign spot where John McCain tells Bush to stand by his attacks or apologize” From [MSNBC.com](http://MSNBC.com), 23 August 2004 - “Flanked by firefighters in Boston, Kerry stripped the mask of patriotic valor from the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth by pointing out the source of their funding: a Texas Republican who wrote two checks for $100,000 to the group. Its sudden emergence is reminiscent of the “Republicans For Clean Air”, which emerged during the 2000 campaign with a telvision spot attacking John McCain’s environmental record. Long after the ad did its damage to McCain in the New York primary, it was revealed that the Wylie brothers in Texas, who backed Bush, had paid for the advertising”. Then there was the Chris Wallace vs Van Odell “title match” on Fox News, where Wallace ripped the Swifties a new asshole. During this “battle of the titans”, Wallace showed the Swifties, Van Odell, and George Elliot to be liars who could not even keep the lies straight. The Chicago Tribune joined the pile up. Colonel Cordier (retired) resigned from Bush’s campaign after he was found to be involved in a Swiftboat ad. Anyway, kerry went off to war and got wounded, and then took an honorable discharge. A side effect of the Swifties was, Bush’s onw record (or lack of one) got some attemtion. Daddy Bush got him a sweet spot int the Air national Guard, ahead of other more qualified people and he became a standing joke. Got sikc just in time to avoid mandatory drug testing, took time off to help other people campaign in support of a war he was sitting out, suspended from flight duty, and AWOL. The dots connect, and the whole thing was a smear campaign. The coward was smearing the hero. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/109 "2005-07-27T18:07:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But **Steve** , proof isn’t necessary. The accusation is enough. We saw that with your accusations against Bush regarding cocaine. > > Ergo, Clinton is guilty. > > Regards, > Shodan Go back to the Bush/Wead interview. But, enough misdirection and tu quoque for now. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/110 "2005-07-27T18:10:25Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > But you had to sign a loyalty oat to attend a Bush rally. Well, I attended a Clinton rally without signing one once, carrying a Bush sign. I wound up getting roughed up by union goons. Different parties, different methods, I guess. > [@Zebra](#): > > The Dems don’t have to move to the right to win. They have to move back to the working man. Right. But is the working man liberal, or at least as liberal as most elected Democrats? Where I come from, the average Democrat is a union member who works all week and might hunt on the weekend. He could even be found in church on Sunday. The issies that roil the national Democratic Party, like gay marriage, posting of the Ten Commandments, and gun control, leave Democrats like my dad feeling alienated and even hostile. Centrist Democrats, on the other hand, are proving that they can build coalitions and win. Clinton showed this. Mark Warner demonstrated this in Virginia. Pro-life and pro-gun Democrats regularly win in Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/111 "2005-07-27T18:42:15Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Well, I attended a Clinton rally without signing one once, carrying a Bush sign. I wound up getting roughed up by union goons. How do we know you got roughed up for carrying the sign, as opposed to whatever other assholish behavior you were engaging in? 🙂 In contrast, the Bush Administration is so insecure, they’ll toss you out of “public” meetings even if you’ve done [nothing worse than having a bumper sticker on your car](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/3/29/103234/490) – as if anyone inside the hall can tell which car you came in… ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/112 "2005-07-27T19:27:06Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > But you had to sign a loyalty oat to attend a Bush rally. I attended a Bush/Cheney campaign event in Chillicothe, Ohio in 2004 without signing anything. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/113 "2005-07-27T19:31:33Z")
It wouldn’t have been necessary in southern Ohio, now would it? [Background info](http://slate.msn.com/id/2108852/) [More](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31019-2004Jul31.html) ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/114 "2005-07-27T19:43:22Z")
The point is that the adminstration is very careful about controling the media and their image. Which is not always a bad thing, however they are careful to control the image of the Dems as well and if that image has no relationship to reality, well, who cares? The war _is_ going well. Saddam _was_ a threat. Iraq _was_ behind 9-11. The economy is getting better. No child _is_ left behind. The environment _is_ protected. The list goes on and on. One thing. The Republicans are runnig against LIBERALS. John Kerry was a DEMOCRATE. Liberal is the Volvo driving, latte drinking, French loving, Gay Marriage, ban the Bible, Christmas hating, elitist snobs, over-educated, activist judges, abortionists who want put child porn in the classroom. Heck, I’d vote against those people. It’s a good thing nobody like that was running for President. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/115 "2005-07-27T20:23:24Z")
**ElvisL1ves** It wasn’t necessary anywhere, but I get your point. Southern Ohio voted Bush, but it’s fairly evenly divided, or at least there’s a strong Democrat minority. Chillicothe has a Democrat Mayor, the city council is about 50-50. **Zebra** It was pretty obvious at the event I attended that the intent was not to gather a crowd of potential voters and persuade them, but rather to gather registered Republicans and get them excited. It was a rally of the “faithful”. It seemed to serve its intended purpose. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/116 "2005-07-27T22:54:13Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The dots connect, and the whole thing was a smear campaign. The coward was smearing the hero. Here is something I just happened across, by sheer chance… \*[http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/21384/](http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/21384/) Yes, our old friends from the Swift Boat Veterans for “Truth” are back again. These same friendly folk are now attacking the AARP, a group largely known for advocating afternoon naps for the elderly. I’m sorry, but every now and again a girl just finds it necessary to lay her head down on the table and howl with laughter. I wrote a column warning that USA Next, a Republican Astroturf (meaning “fake grassroots”) group was going to attack the AARP. The senior citizens’ lobby does not support the privatization of Social Security, and so clearly incurs the wrath of all God-fearing, true-believing, highly-paid Republican public relations firms. But I have to confess, even I did not see this one coming.\* This is some funny shit right here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/117 "2005-07-27T23:17:32Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > But, enough misdirection and tu quoque for now. All right. Perhaps you can supply some more later. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/118 "2005-07-28T00:44:54Z")
Ah, irony … ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/119 "2005-07-28T01:04:15Z")
**Steve** - I hate Bush. I believe that he used coke (the timing was right, he had the bucks, daddy had the influence etc - his comments later on, but none of it is proof (just like while we may believe, suspect etc Teddy K was drunk that night, there currently is no proof. There’s certainly no shortage of provable shit to nail on Bush, may I suggest you fall back on some of those ? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162/120 "2005-07-28T01:12:08Z")
> [@wring](#): > > **Steve** - I hate Bush. I believe that he used coke (the timing was right, he had the bucks, daddy had the influence etc - his comments later on, but none of it is proof (just like while we may believe, suspect etc Teddy K was drunk that night, there currently is no proof. There’s certainly no shortage of provable shit to nail on Bush, may I suggest you fall back on some of those ? OK, will do. By the way, I do believe Teddy was drunk and should have been carted off to jail - That’s an On The Record statement from me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberal-dopers-age-50-to-55/314162.md?page=7)