# question for liberals; you've won, now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915 "2014-10-20T14:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/181 "2014-10-21T08:11:37Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > Liberals win the country and a portion of the voting public realizes that this isn’t what they wanted. So the pendulum swings the other way in increments. > > The pendulum swings the other way, and a portion of the voting public realize this isn’t what they wanted. So the pendulum swings the other in increments. I _wish._ I’ve been hearing my entire adult life that\* someday\* the pendulum would swing back to the left, but it hasn’t\*. America’s so far to the right that the Democrats get called “liberal”, despite basically being Reagan Republicans. American politics in the modern era are a ratchet, not a pendulum; they only go right. \*With the sole exception of homosexual rights, which is why the exception is so noticeable; they stand out vividly in a otherwise relentless rightward political march. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/182 "2014-10-21T08:56:40Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > 1. Why was Lois held in contempt of Congress? > 2. Why wouldn’t Holder do anything about it? Why should I give a shit? Again, you’re spinning this elaborate conspiracy theory where people have committed wrongdoings and covered it up, when the best analysis we have has come to the clear conclusion that there’s nothing shady or wrong going on here. I don’t have the time or energy to continue to deal with this stupid conspiracy theory. > [@](#): > > “God damn America” is a pretty specific political position. But somehow, he gets a pass. Why is that? That’s “petition”, not “position”. As far as typos go, a rather unfortunate one, I will admit. > [@](#): > > You know who else has a (c)(4)? > > Organizing for America, aka [barackobama.com](http://barackobama.com) Did they receive extra scrutiny from Lois Lerner? Did Senator Durbin write the IRS to request extra examination of that organization? Why not? I don’t know. I don’t particularly care. Again, the best analysis we have indicates that there was no politically motivated wrongdoing. Weave conspiracy theories, complain about bigotry all you want; I don’t care. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You clearly don’t understand how “tax exempt” organizations even work. Maybe I don’t. That’s why, when it comes to this issue, I defer to expert analysis. Like, say, the government committee responsible for investigating the issue. Who came back with exactly the result I’m touting. > [@Stringbean](#): > > Not it’s not. It’s scum-sucking tiny-dicks who want power. So… Just me then? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/183 "2014-10-21T09:09:41Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You are not free to discriminate someone because of their sexual orientation, that is not something you should be allowed to do. In most of the United States, actually, businesses are perfectly free to discriminate based on sexual orientation, and there is no sign that that will be changing any time soon. Anti-discrimination laws are not part of the same-sex marriage package as some right-wingers seem to believe. I wish they were but they are not. They are an entirely separate fight that still has to be fought. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/184 "2014-10-21T09:44:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I _wish._ I’ve been hearing my entire adult life that\* someday\* the pendulum would swing back to the left, but it hasn’t\*. America’s so far to the right that the Democrats get called “liberal”, despite basically being Reagan Republicans. > > American politics in the modern era are a ratchet, not a pendulum; they only go right. > \*With the sole exception of homosexual rights, which is why the exception is so noticeable; they stand out vividly in a otherwise relentless rightward political march. Didn’t the ACA happen? Maybe not well…but it is there. I think the next left/right swing will happen in regards to big business spending versus populace spending. Just because we can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. I’ve been reading that Republicans are losing the popular vote. Which is why I’ve been saying the voting public. People have to become educated and vote to make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/185 "2014-10-21T10:42:09Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > b/c it is becoming increasingly obvious that you just can’t trust the powers that be to use their power to protect the rights of minorities. I used to like anti-discrimination laws too until I started to see ominous signs that the powers that be will use such laws to shut down groups they disagree with. I think this should be a concern for everyone. So you’re afraid that the “powers that be” will “shut you down” by forcing you to bake me a cake? Somehow you have become the minority whose rights need to be protected? The only right you’re referring to is your right to discriminate, the right to live your life without having to deal with gays, blacks, Jews, etc. You expect society to give you a guarantee that you’ll never be expected to accommodate anyone you don’t like, as if we, too, are minorities with rights. Well guess what: we should all have the same rights, even you. Because nobody has the right to discriminate against you either. We haven’t won the culture war, because there’s no culture war, and there never was one. There’s only the ongoing recognition that we all should have the same rights. If I refuse to sell you a cake because of your sexual orientation, there will be a law against that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/186 "2014-10-21T10:44:37Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Isn’t there a distinction between your first point and all of the others? Presumably, the baker would have no problems baking a cake for a gay person for a birthday party or some such thing. He doesn’t refuse to serve a customer based upon sexual orientation. He simply refuses to bake a cake related to a particular activity. If he refuses to bake wedding cakes at all, you’re right. If he’ll bake a cake for a straight couple, but not for a gay couple, you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > Yes, that particular activity is related to sexual orientation, but I’ve never understood discrimination laws to reach to the “related to” level. If a baker refused to bake a pro-KKK cake for a rally, that would affect whites much more than other races, but nobody would seriously argue that it is discrimination based on race. Hopefully nobody would seriously argue that refusing to bake a politically-oriented cake is remotely analogous to refusing to bake a wedding cake. The correct analogy would be a baker who refuses to bake a pro-same-sex-marriage cake for a rally, something that says, “I support SSM across the nation.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/187 "2014-10-21T11:59:12Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > b/c he believes gay marriage is sinful. therefore he wants no part of it. his freedom to not participate in those weddings has been erased. he will have to lose his business if he wants to stay true to his convictions. Do you lament Klan members that were forced to go out of business because they refused to let Catholics into their businesses? Also, if someone thinks God doesn’t like race mixing, are you okay with the baker turning away an interracial couple? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/188 "2014-10-21T12:48:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If he refuses to bake wedding cakes at all, you’re right. If he’ll bake a cake for a straight couple, but not for a gay couple, you’re wrong. Wait. **jtgain** makes a good point. If a baker is willing to bake a cake for Joe’s (who is gay) birthday (and for sake of argument, let’s say has overt cues like the rainbow flag), but not Joe’s wedding, it’s hard to argue that he is discriminating against a person’s sexual orientation. He’s discriminating against a particular act—SSM. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Hopefully nobody would seriously argue that refusing to bake a politically-oriented cake is remotely analogous to refusing to bake a wedding cake. Why not? Do you think that one is more protected by the constitution than the other? If so, which one? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/189 "2014-10-21T12:50:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Also, if someone thinks God doesn’t like race mixing, are you okay with the baker turning away an interracial couple? This brings up two interesting points. One is that there is a difference between actual religious doctrine and made up religious doctrine. The other is that it can be very difficult to draw a line between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/190 "2014-10-21T13:02:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This brings up two interesting points. One is that there is a difference between actual religious doctrine and made up religious doctrine. The other is that it can be very difficult to draw a line between the two. Well, all religious doctrine is made up. 😃 But the Christian Identity movement is a real thing, and as valid in the eyes of the law as general Christianity. It seems to me that allowing one to be racist on religious grounds would have an awful lot of people joining such religions. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/191 "2014-10-21T13:07:42Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > ten years ago, I wouldn’t have hesitated. Now I think differently. Now, I would support the right of the racist idiot to not serve races he doesn’t like. and the reason I take this line is precisely b/c I don’t trust the govt to protect the rights of African-Americans, gays, Muslims, Christians, women, etc. It hasn’t done it in the past and there are increasing signs that it isn’t going to do it in the future. frankly, I trust the free-market to punish business owners (like the one you mention) far more than I trust the govt to do so. right now, the govt is very much anti-racism. but that could change and then every true liberal would beg for the rights I described above. I think we are all just plain mistaken if we think that the powers-that-be are going to respect the rights of the minorities of whatever color or religion. History shows the opposite to be the case. Are you going to clarify this for us? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Let me get this straight: racists should be able to refuse service to black people because the government might stop making racists serve black people one day. Is that what you’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/192 "2014-10-21T13:12:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Wait. **jtgain** makes a good point. If a baker is willing to bake a cake for Joe’s (who is gay) birthday (and for sake of argument, let’s say has overt cues like the rainbow flag), but not Joe’s wedding, it’s hard to argue that he is discriminating against a person’s sexual orientation. He’s discriminating against a particular act—SSM. I think wedding cakes are different, from a business standpoint, than regular cakes – so refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay person (or a gay couple) sounds like discrimination based on sexual orientation alone. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/193 "2014-10-21T13:25:40Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > Didn’t the ACA happen? Maybe not well…but it is there. You mean the system that Mitt Romney did first, in his state? You mean the system that Gingrich proposed as the Republican alternative to the healthcare reforms sought by Democrats in the 90’s? Is that really the “pendulum swinging left” to you? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/194 "2014-10-21T13:31:47Z")
I don’t think those really signify, since it was only a minority of Republicans who ever proposed ACA-like legislation (and it was basically just to have an alternative to Hilarycare). What’s more significant is that the lower house of Congress has attempted to repeal the ACA 4200 times. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/195 "2014-10-21T13:41:56Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > You mean the system that Mitt Romney did first, in his state? You mean the system that Gingrich proposed as the Republican alternative to the healthcare reforms sought by Democrats in the 90’s? Is that really the “pendulum swinging left” to you? It’s swung from \*not \*doing it, or even really intending to, to _doing it. That’s leftward_. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/196 "2014-10-21T14:00:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think wedding cakes are different, from a business standpoint, than regular cakes – so refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay person (or a gay couple) sounds like discrimination based on sexual orientation alone. Yes, that’s the expected position. You haven’t addressed what I brought up, via **jtgain**. One can most definitely draw a line between homosexuality and SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/197 "2014-10-21T14:04:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This brings up two interesting points. One is that there is a difference between actual religious doctrine and made up religious doctrine. And what would that difference be? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/198 "2014-10-21T14:19:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes, that’s the expected position. You haven’t addressed what I brought up, via **jtgain**. One can most definitely draw a line between homosexuality and SSM. One can draw that line, but refusing to bake a cake for same-sex marriages while baking cakes for opposite sex marriages is still discriminating against people because they are gay. “If you’re gay, I’ll bake you a cake, but I won’t bake you a wedding cake for your ceremony” is discrimination. One can draw the line, and call it “opposition to an action, not an orientation”, but it’s still discrimination in practice. Just like it would be to refuse to bake cakes for interracial weddings, or for Jewish weddings. Saying one is not opposed to Jews, just to Jewish weddings, doesn’t really fly as a defense for whether it’s discrimination based on religion or not. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/199 "2014-10-21T14:26:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This brings up two interesting points. One is that there is a difference between actual religious doctrine and made up religious doctrine. The other is that it can be very difficult to draw a line between the two. Not a pastor, of course, but I presume [this guy](https://lva.omeka.net/items/show/54) wasn’t making up his religious doctrine. [QUOTE=Judge Leon Bazile] Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/200 "2014-10-21T14:28:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, those things are discrimination too, but I think being told that you can’t refuse to serve someone as part of your business could be discrimination. If I own a business that makes wedding cakes, and I seriously have a religious belief that says that gay marriage is wrong and that its sinful to participate in a gay wedding or encourage that, the government is basically saying that, if I want to stay in business, I have to do something I think is immoral. And that rubs me the wrong way a little bit. I’m not sure that it’s ok for the government to force someone to do something that’s against their religion or punish them if they don’t. Of course it’s ok for the government to force something to do or not do something that is part of their religious belief. Human sacrifice, jihad, statutory rape have all been part of some religious groups beliefs. Saying “it’s my religious belief” does not grant you a pass to break the law. I agree with your point, but not your reasoning behind it. The government should not be able to tell you who you can and cannot serve in your business for plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with race or religion or sexual preference. But by the same token, the government shouldn’t protect you if a store owners bigoted practices cause a backlash of economic forces and popular opinion that drives them out of business. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=11)