# question for liberals; you've won, now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915 "2014-10-20T14:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/261 "2014-10-22T03:35:59Z")
The whole point of the invisible hand shtick is that it converts private avarice into public good. Conservatives once assured us they shared the same benevolent ends as liberals: they just disagreed about the means. I guess the mask has fallen. The public good or public health or welfare are no longer something that’s considered desirable. Markets are not the servants of the conservative: they are now the master. I must say libertarianism is looking better and better: I fully support the formation of libertarian states on the ocean, in the arctic, in Chile or perhaps in Western Sahara. Drain the intellectual swamp I say. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/262 "2014-10-22T03:40:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And what possible argument is there for having the law say different, besides the feeble and fuzzy-minded “well the hotel is theirs so they should be able to do whatever they want with it”? I don’t know? Except that I’m uncomfortable with setting up a situation where someone has to make a choice between their moral beliefs and their livelihood. And, sure, in cases of health and safety of the public and things like that, sometimes you have to, like the example given earlier of the person who’s religion requires human sacrifice. And I can even see extending that to the examples of the hotel room or whatever. People need a place to sleep, people need to be able to buy gas, people need to be able to get groceries, so I can see saying that the public good requires somebody’s religion to bend on that score. But nobody needs a wedding cake. I don’t like having this position…I don’t like defending people who are discriminating (I especially don’t like defending people who are discriminating against me), but I don’t really like the other alternative either. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/263 "2014-10-22T03:57:38Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > The good of the individual who pursues the endeavor. What on earth are you on about? What grocery store clerk is doing it for a better world? To say that “commerce exists for the good of the public as a whole” is not the same thing as “every individual participating in commerce is consciously doing so with the primary or exclusive goal of creating a better world.” That was a pretty impressive libertarian knee-jerk you did there, though. _“Oh no, a statement that seems to imply the possibility of a social function transcending individual self-interest! Repudiate! Distort and repudiate!”_ > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Please correct me if I’m mistaken, **Kimstu**. Nope, couldnta said it better myself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/264 "2014-10-22T04:09:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Except that I’m uncomfortable with setting up a situation where someone has to make a choice between their moral beliefs and their livelihood. That’s one of the side benefits to having the law prescribe equal access to public accommodations. The business owner **doesn’t have to** endure an agonizing struggle between their desire to make money and their religious conscience telling them to refuse this customer’s business. They simply have to follow the law that requires them to treat all their customers equally. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > But nobody needs a wedding cake. Very true. And consequently, nobody needs to go into business as a wedding cake baker. But if somebody **does** go into that business, and advertises wedding cakes for sale to the general public, then they’re not entitled to stipulate that certain members of the general public aren’t allowed to purchase their wares just because the baker’s religion says that those people shouldn’t be getting married. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/265 "2014-10-22T04:11:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not an assertion, it’s a statement of principle. If you disagree with that principle, feel free to state your own opinion about what commerce is for. Except you made a declarative statement, as if your own opinion were true. Hint: It’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/266 "2014-10-22T04:18:46Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Except you made a declarative statement, as if your own opinion were true. Hint: It’s not. Most statements of principal are, also, declarative statements. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/267 "2014-10-22T04:22:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But nobody needs a wedding cake. So where do you draw the line? Nobody needs artisan bread either, but plain ol’ bread probably falls under the groceries you mentioned. Do we make a rule: white bread must be sold to all comers, but you don’t have to sell brioche if you don’t approve of the customer? How many rules are you figuring you’ll need, and how many people will you need to enforce them? Or maybe we just say: everything you sell, you sell regardless of creed, color, gender, national origin, sexual orientation, etc. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/268 "2014-10-22T04:25:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Most statements of principal are, also, declarative statements. Most people, when giving declarations of “principal” (sic) use forms such as “I think”, “I believe”, “In my opinion”, etc. Not a flat out declaration, as if his opinion is universally true. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/269 "2014-10-22T04:30:16Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Except you made a declarative statement, as if your own opinion were true. That’s how statements of principle are generally expressed (ETA: as **Miller** noted). Are you really confused about how to tell an abstract statement about the fundamental purpose of commerce from a specific assertion of a particular verifiable fact? Because if so, I’m afraid it’s going to need more than a few subjective modifiers to solve your reading comprehension problems. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/270 "2014-10-22T04:34:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That’s how statements of principle are generally expressed. Are you really confused about how to tell an abstract statement about the fundamental purpose of commerce from a specific assertion of a particular verifiable fact? That’s not true, either. For example: “We hold these truths to be self evident.” That’s an opinion, not a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/271 "2014-10-22T04:40:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Did clubs in the US with de facto and even de jure discrimination against black or female membership persist in the US? Despite occasional doe eyed conservative protestations that of course nobody would associate with such establishments? But of course. In practice if the facilities are good, people will join even if they don’t like all of the policies. The Augusta National Golf Club, where the Masters Tournament is held, refused to admit African-American members until 1990 and female members until 2012. There was also a point when they refused to admit Jewish members, but I don’t know when that was revoked. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/272 "2014-10-22T04:40:51Z")
> [@D'Anconia](#): > > That’s an opinion, not a fact. I repeat: Are you really confused about how to tell an abstract statement about the fundamental purpose of commerce from a specific assertion of a particular verifiable fact? Because if not, then you understood my clear meaning perfectly well, and you are just playing Recreational Cite Holler for your own amusement. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/273 "2014-10-22T04:43:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I repeat: Are you really confused about how to tell an abstract statement about the fundamental purpose of commerce from a specific assertion of a particular verifiable fact? I disagree with your version of the fundamental purpose of commerce. Why do you insist that your view is de facto true? ---
**Author:** ![SuperAbe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@SuperAbe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperAbe)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/274 "2014-10-22T04:51:53Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I disagree with your version of the fundamental purpose of commerce. Why do you insist that your view is de facto true? Okay, I’m starting to get a headache. For the sake of the rest of us, could you please just state directly _what your version of the purpose of commerce is_ so we can move on to consider and debate those merits rather than the minutiae of Grand Debate Style? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/275 "2014-10-22T04:55:11Z")
> [@SuperAbe](#): > > Okay, I’m starting to get a headache. For the sake of the rest of us, could you please just state directly _what your version of the purpose of commerce is_ so we can move on to consider and debate those merits rather than the minutiae of Grand Debate Style? Sure, that’s easy. The purpose of commerce is to trade goods and services at the rate people are willing to pay. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/276 "2014-10-22T04:56:22Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > No pastor/minister/priest/priestess/whatever should be forced to perform a marriage in conflict with the basic principles of their religion. That’s why we have an institution of secular marriage and secular officials who can perform such marriages, to give people an alternative. Insisting a Fundamentalist Christian minister or a Catholic priest perform a same sex marriage is, again, a violation of freedom of religion and if it’s going on it should stop immediately. > > Couldn’t agree more and from what I understand it doesn’t. A quick google gets [multiple](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96577) recent [examples](http://abcnews.go.com/US/mississippi-church-rejects-black-wedding/story?id=16878536) of churches refusing to marry interracial couples. The idea that the government forces churches to marry people is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/277 "2014-10-22T05:05:47Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The purpose of commerce is to trade goods and services at the rate people are willing to pay. Which implies that trading goods and services is something people in general want to do. In other words, it exists because it’s good for the public as a whole. Sheee-eesh. You really thought it was worth making a big dumb fuss about this? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/278 "2014-10-22T05:07:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Most people, when giving declarations of “principal” (sic) use forms such as “I think”, “I believe”, “In my opinion”, etc. Most people are capable of figuring out the difference between a statement of fact, and an opinion, without needing the writer to clue them in ahead of time. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/279 "2014-10-22T05:07:59Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I disagree with your version of the fundamental purpose of commerce. Why do you insist that your view is de facto true? You still seem to be missing the point that not every declarative sentence is an assertion of objective fact. But I’m going to have to leave you to wrestle with it on your own from now on. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/280 "2014-10-22T05:31:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t like having this position…I don’t like defending people who are discriminating (I especially don’t like defending people who are discriminating against me), but I don’t really like the other alternative either. [Here is a Wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book) on what happens when what you seem to want happens. > [@](#): > > African-American travelers faced a variety of dangers and inconveniences, ranging from white-owned businesses refusing to serve them or repair their vehicles, to being refused accommodation or food by white-owned hotels, to even facing threats of physical violence and forcible expulsion from whites-only “sundown towns”. New York mailman and travel agent Victor H. Green published The Negro Motorist Green Book to tackle such problems and “to give the Negro traveler information that will keep him from running into difficulties, embarrassments and to make his trip more enjoyable.”[5] To protect the delicate sensitivities of the bigots you would seem to support reopening of segregated lunch counters and hotels. And hospitals. IIRC integrated bands didn’t tour the south because it was too much of a hassle to be split up whenever they stopped. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=15)