# question for liberals; you've won, now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915 "2014-10-20T14:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/301 "2014-10-22T20:12:16Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > There you are with a bunch of savings. No one thinks you are morally compelled to build a public place of accommodation with it, you could buy take all your money and buy beanie babies and then light them on fire. But instead you decide to build a hotel. Or, there you are, a person with great cake-making ability, not making any cakes, yet you are not morally condemned for not exercising your baking talents. However, once you **do** decide to open a bakery, you are morally condemned for …\. If you do open a yoga studio, you must allow the smelly, the noisy, the gay, the Lutheran, etc. all to enter. > > Why the switch from not being morally obligated to do anything, to being morally obligated to do everything those in power demand? (I don’t think Steven Landsburg would say I have mis-characterized this, his argument.) > > What! Allow racial discrimination! I think if pressed I can find evidence to show that Jim Crow discrimination was not a universal preference of all (possible) business in the South. There were entrepreneurs that wanted to open diners, hotels, and other businesses allowing both black and white customers. They were prevented from this policy (i.e. they were forced to discriminate) by the law. You can make a private bigot club if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/302 "2014-10-22T21:27:56Z")
So there you are - a racist with a car, but the moment you put a ‘taxi’ sign on it and start charging people for driving them around, you’re morally condemned for \… It’s just inexplicable! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/303 "2014-10-23T02:17:10Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > What! Allow racial discrimination! I think if pressed I can find evidence to show that Jim Crow discrimination was not a universal preference of all (possible) business in the South. There were entrepreneurs that wanted to open diners, hotels, and other businesses allowing both black and white customers. They were prevented from this policy (i.e. they were forced to discriminate) by the law. Not hard - I suspect black businessmen were against it, unless you don’t think they count. But do dispute that there were plenty of businesses which discriminated without a legal requirement to do so? There are plenty of cases still, and cases in states without the laws. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/304 "2014-10-23T22:12:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Not hard - I suspect black businessmen were against it, unless you don’t think they count. But do dispute that there were plenty of businesses which discriminated without a legal requirement to do so? There are plenty of cases still, and cases in states without the laws. Wait, are you saying that you think black businessmen were against the abolishment of Jim Crow laws because it gave them, well, not monopoly power, but market power with black customers? Then yes, of course they don’t have a true preference against serving black customers. I agree some businesses were not legally forced to discriminate. I do think that any business that tried to discriminate where that type was not popular came under economic pressure that most likely caused bankruptcy. Say Ohio, in 1949 does not have Jim Crow laws, just (evil) customs in some places. A restaurant with a ‘No Coloreds’ policy may do ok. Try to discriminate against Albanians, and the Albanians will stop coming as well as those who find eccentricity annoying. ‘No Germans’ ? Harumph, a big population finds somewhere else to shop. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/305 "2014-10-23T22:59:30Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > Wait, are you saying that you think black businessmen were against the abolishment of Jim Crow laws because it gave them, well, not monopoly power, but market power with black customers? Jesus fucking Christ, no, that’s not what he’s saying. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/306 "2014-10-23T23:05:52Z")
Did **magellan01** abandon the thread after we asked a bunch of questions? ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/307 "2014-10-24T01:53:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Did **magellan01** abandon the thread after we asked a bunch of questions? I’m sure he’s working on the answers and just being thorough. After all, he’s so thorough that he’s still in the middle of conducting four or five years of research on the unanswered “What actual harm is legalized gay marriage gonna do” question. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/308 "2014-10-24T13:35:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Did **magellan01** abandon the thread after we asked a bunch of questions? Well, I’m not really motivated to check right now, but I’m pretty sure the OP abandoned it first. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/309 "2014-10-25T16:49:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Good luck getting an answer to _that_ one, no matter how many times it is asked. I have no problem with a baker not baking an interracial marriage cake or a SSM cake, and I would contend (although I have not researched case law) that such prohibitions don’t run afoul of anti-discrimination laws which prohibit service to a _customer_ based upon protected traits. Those laws don’t extend to all activities in which those customers would like to participate. They also are extremely different from the original purpose of civil rights laws. Before 1964, in some areas of the country, blacks would have to travel hundreds of miles before being able to find a hotel or a restaurant that would serve them. Such a problem does not exist for wedding cakes. If Joe the Baker won’t make your cake, go to the bakery down the road. Such prejudice is not systematic to the point where you won’t get your wedding cake. On one hand is a person’s sincerely held belief versus a person having to go to the next guy who would almost certainly bake their cake. In that case, society should side with the baker. If you could show that this was a societal problem where gay people could truly not get a cake for their weddings (instead of a general fuck you to conservative bakers against SSM) then I would probably be on your side. But I don’t think you could do that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/310 "2014-10-25T17:02:10Z")
The bakery down the road-what an amusing concept in many small towns and villages. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/311 "2014-10-25T19:35:25Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If Joe the Baker won’t make your cake, go to the bakery down the road. Such prejudice is not systematic to the point where you won’t get your wedding cake. History demonstrates differently, as has already been pointed out. When that sort of bigotry is permitted, entire cities and regions will refuse to serve black people in any way. There not only won’t be any cake, there won’t be any food or gas or shelter or anything at all available. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/312 "2014-10-25T20:13:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > History demonstrates differently, as has already been pointed out. When that sort of bigotry is permitted, entire cities and regions will refuse to serve black people in any way. There not only won’t be any cake, there won’t be any **food or gas or shelter** or anything at all available. Not to nitpick, but asking someone to bake a gay-wedding cake is a much more obvious indication of sexual orientation than “I’d like to order stir-fried beef and cabbage” or “I’d like $35 of gasoline for Pump No. 6.” Unless the customer makes it obvious in the restaurant or gas station that he’s gay. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/313 "2014-10-25T20:18:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Not to nitpick, but asking someone to bake a gay-wedding cake is a much more obvious indication of sexual orientation than “I’d like to order stir-fried beef and cabbage” or “I’d like $35 of gasoline for Pump No. 6.” > > Unless the customer makes it obvious in the restaurant or gas station that he’s gay. “The gays can just go back into the closet” is not a good defense of allowing bigots to do as they please. And it’s _really_ noticeable in these conversations how it is the bigots who are supposed to be allowed to do as they want, and everyone else has to cave in to their every whim. These so-called “freedom of conscience” arguments call for the opposite of freedom; they are calls for the bigots to be allowed dominion over everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/314 "2014-10-25T21:53:01Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Question: It is becoming increasingly obvious that the right has lost the culture war, and this nation is going to become another European-style, liberal society. Soon the moderately conservative majority on the Supreme Court will be replaced with liberals and conservates will be minorities. Liberals will have their way in all three brances of the federal govt. You are talking only about liberal victory in social/cultural matters as opposed to economic or foreign-policy or anything else. If that culture war is ever entirely won (which it is not yet, e.g., I expect public debate on abortion will remain two-sided for some years to come), then what comes next is probably [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=723616). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/315 "2014-10-25T22:05:17Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > will muslim taxis be forced to carry passengers who have alcohol? Somehow, I can’t imagine one balking. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/316 "2014-10-25T22:30:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > History demonstrates differently, as has already been pointed out. When that sort of bigotry is permitted, entire cities and regions will refuse to serve black people in any way. There not only won’t be any cake, there won’t be any food or gas or shelter or anything at all available. But it doesn’t. Many states have absolutely no laws prohibiting discrimination based upon sexual orientation and I have never heard widespread discord about how gay people go without food, gas, shelter, or wedding cakes because of it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/317 "2014-10-25T23:55:34Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But it doesn’t. Many states have absolutely no laws prohibiting discrimination based upon sexual orientation and I have never heard widespread discord about how gay people go without food, gas, shelter, or wedding cakes because of it. Because your eyes, ears, heart and mind are closed to their suffering. If you haven’t seen people denied food, shelter, utilities, wedding cakes and the protection of the law and the right to be buried next to their loved one after a life of freedom and liberty, then it is only because you haven’t been paying attention to exactly what we have been talking about for the past 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/318 "2014-11-01T01:16:49Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Because your eyes, ears, heart and mind are closed to their suffering. If you haven’t seen people denied food, shelter, utilities, wedding cakes and the protection of the law and the right to be buried next to their loved one after a life of freedom and liberty, then it is only because you haven’t been paying attention to exactly what we have been talking about for the past 50 years. My sarcasm meter fails me. Are you serious about that or is there no response from those who state that allowing bakers to refuse to bake SSM cakes would cause gay couples seeking to have cakes at their wedding to go without? ---
**Author:** ![BobR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@BobR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobR)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/319 "2014-11-01T02:25:19Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You can have whatever thoughts or opinions you want, but when you turn them into actions that impinge of the rights of others to freely live their lives it becomes a problem. How many taxis does someone have to be turned away from for carrying alcohol before their life is negatively impacted by someone running a business. While I personally don’t have an issue with same-sex marriage, there is always the need to strike some sort of balance between common good and the right of an individual to personal autonomy. This becomes especially important in situations involving personal beliefs about right and wrong. For example, we could apply your question in another context: how many times does someone have to be denied an abortion before their life is negatively impacted by someone running a business? It’s really the same question. Under what circumstances, if any, do we compel a person to accommodate someone in a manner that goes against his personal beliefs of right and wrong? In my belief system, there are some. Most of them are covered in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. But this is something that has to be weighed very carefully. I don’t think your alcohol example passes the test; the next taxi is coming down the street, the next baker is a few blocks away, and the next performer of marriages is in the same city. On the other hand, we the people, taken as a whole, have the obligation to treat our individual citizens indiscriminately as far as we are able. We do not have the right to tax same-sex couples differently, to dispose of their estates differently, and so on, from opposite-sex couples. It is one thing to use the law to suppress behavior that is harmful to the common good, and very much another to use it to suppress behavior that we don’t like. Very often, these two are confused. Not wanting one’s children to grow up in a society that allows gay couples the same rights as heterosexual couples is not so far removed from not wanting one’s children to grow up in a society that allows Catholics, or Protestants, or Jews, or Musilms, or whatever, to freely practice a belief system that is different from one’s own. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/320 "2014-11-01T05:00:17Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > My sarcasm meter fails me. Are you serious about that or is there no response from those who state that allowing bakers to refuse to bake SSM cakes would cause gay couples seeking to have cakes at their wedding to go without? It’s really easy for you to say “go find another bakery” when it’s not you being discriminated against. Where do you draw the line? Would you let hospitals refuse to treat gay people? Or bakers refuse service to interracial couples? To be frank, I don’t think you have a leg to stand on here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=17)