# question for liberals; you've won, now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915 "2014-10-20T14:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/341 "2014-11-02T01:03:29Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > In a way I sort of agree. I think that is why so many right-wingers (myself included) are becoming libertarians. We are beginning to realize that we just aren’t going to win the culture war in this nation. Our best hope is a free society where we can just be ourselves provided we agree to let everyone else be what they want to be. It seems the only way. I wonder if liberals would be willing to agree to this. (?) Actually we have. Glad you guys are catching up. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/342 "2014-11-02T18:09:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Can you give me a cite that says every town has more than one bakery that makes wedding cakes? You’re the one claiming there’s always an alternative if one place refuses to accept patronage. As the proponent of a law that restricts individual liberties, the burden is on you to show a harm that needs to be corrected. I don’t need to research every square mile of U.S. territory from Key West, FL to Nome, AK to find that there is in fact not a harm existing where you claim it does. With the existence of the internet, such a harm in all probability does not exist. Like I said, if you can show widespread harm from an individual baker, or their conduct in the aggregate, by refusing to bake gay wedding cakes, then I might change my mind. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Why do gay people have to have ‘weddings’, anyway? Why can’t the just have civil union parties? Why should they get to use the word ‘married’ to describe their unions? Isn’t separate but equal good enough? This belongs in one of the many prior threads on SSM and its legality. For the purposes of this thread, we should assume that SSM is legal where the wedding cake is attempting to be purchased. It doesn’t therefore follow that every private business should have to serve anything or anyone involved in the SSM. ---
**Author:** ![maxmrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@maxmrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maxmrb)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/343 "2014-11-04T23:05:00Z")
wow, I don’t see that liberals have won at all. There is no democracy, as our elections are bought as allowed by Citizens United. There is no capitalism as there is less competition because of so few local businesses and apparently legal monopolies (Time Warner, Comcast, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/344 "2014-11-05T02:16:23Z")
I commend **cornopean** for changing his position and supporting the judge [who ordered the Colorado baker to bake the cake for the gay wedding participants](http://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-orders-colorado-bakery-cater-sex-weddings/story?id=21136505). The judge based his decision on Colorado state law which forbids discrimination on the basis of race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation. Federal law had nothing to do with it. I personally don’t go in much for states rights, as they are typically used as a figleaf for bigots who lack the courage to make direct arguments. I don’t rely on such arguments. But raising that issue in this context backs the Judge who wrote this decision. Bravo. ---
**Author:** ![FrederickJones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@FrederickJones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrederickJones)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/345 "2014-11-06T13:50:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Just because you want that to be the case doesn’t mean that that is necessarily the case. > > Yeah, discrimination against a specific _action_, not against an individual. For the proof of that, let’s reconsider the gay guy I mentioned earlier. And let’s say he wears a jacket with the rainbow flag on it, and a patch that says “Gay Pride”. He comes in to a cake shop and orders a birthday cake for his sister. No problem. He comes back next week and orders a birthday cake for himself, requesting the rainbow flag as a design. Again, no problem. He comes back again and says he wants a wedding cake for himself and his boyfriend. The cake shop owner declines. So, the cake shop owner has expressed no discrimination or animosity against Joe due to his sexual orientation. But he has chosen to not be part of an action he thinks immoral. Yes…it’s about time somebody got it right. I was starting to think I was the only Christian on this blog. :eek:⭕) ---
**Author:** ![FrederickJones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@FrederickJones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrederickJones)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/346 "2014-11-06T13:54:41Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > It’s really easy for you to say “go find another bakery” when it’s not you being discriminated against. Where do you draw the line? Would you let hospitals refuse to treat gay people? Or bakers refuse service to interracial couples? To be frank, I don’t think you have a leg to stand on here. You know it’s not about refusing someone to be healthy or not. This whole gay marriage thing is about Christianity, atheism, and our American way of life. We are about to lose that and become just as bad as all the other countries of the world. Oh well, I’ll die before it gets really bad. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/347 "2014-11-06T13:59:10Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > You know it’s not about refusing someone to be healthy or not. This whole gay marriage thing is about Christianity, atheism, and our American way of life. We are about to lose that and become just as bad as all the other countries of the world. Your “American way of life” is probably quite different from my “American way of life”. I’m straight and married, by the way. And the countries with gay marriage have a very high standard of living – they’re very nice places to live, for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/348 "2014-11-06T14:00:29Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > Yes…it’s about time somebody got it right. I was starting to think I was the only Christian on this blog. :eek:⭕) 1. You’re not even close to being the only Christian here. 2. This isn’t a blog. This is a message board. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/349 "2014-11-06T14:28:32Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > Oh well, I’ll die before it gets really bad. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: One could hope. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/350 "2014-11-06T14:36:30Z")
It’s not like Arizona actually _passed_ the bill that would allow discrimination only to have it squelched by a bunch of increasingly higher liberal courts. No, what happened was as soon as the word got out about this legislation, sports and professional organizations across the entire country lashed back and declared that they would never again hold any events in Arizona if the bill became law, causing hotels and convention center to go into convulsions. Then about 98% percent of the businesses in Arizona jumped into the fray, posting rainbow signage that showed their disagreement with bill and letting everyone know that they were “Open for Business…for Everyone”………leaving the small percentage of bigot-owned business exposed by virtue of their naked windows. Yes, it was not the government but the invisible hand of the free market that twisted ultra-conservative governor Jan Brewer’s arm while repeatedly bitch-slapping her in the face until she cried “uncle” and vetoed the bill. Yes, I am talking about the same free market that conservatives worship and deem infallible. The very same free market that conservatives call out as an excuse to abolish the minimum wage and the social safety nets. So what if it turns out that Adam Smith’s sacred invisible hand loves gay couples and couldn’t care less about Chick-Fil-A and Hobby Lobby? Or that Honey Maid scored a huge win with its gay-friendly ad campaigns and managed to turn it into even a huger win by posting viral videos made of hate mail? It’s the free market, not liberal governments, that have effectively rebranded the gay marriage debate as “Hate vs Love”. And the conservatives have hitched their wagons to the free market star and if they don’t like the way the invisible hand is swinging,……too bad. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/351 "2014-11-06T17:30:41Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > One of the nice things about being a citizen of the US is that you have the same rights as everyone else no matter where you go in the country. Really? How about gun rights re: concealed or open carry or the permitting necessary? How about Voter ID? Just pointing out that not your statement is not an absolute truth. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/352 "2014-11-06T17:38:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. You’re not even close to being the only Christian here. > 2. This isn’t a blog. This is a message board. 1. **magellan** isn’t a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/353 "2014-11-06T19:28:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > One could hope. Enough of that. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/354 "2014-11-07T00:48:44Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I commend **cornopean** for changing his position and supporting the judge [who ordered the Colorado baker to bake the cake for the gay wedding participants](http://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-orders-colorado-bakery-cater-sex-weddings/story?id=21136505). The judge based his decision on Colorado state law which forbids discrimination on the basis of race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation. Federal law had nothing to do with it. Well, it actually DOES have something to do with it. Colorado voters in 1992 passed an amendment to the Colorado constitution prohibiting laws which forbade discrimination based upon sexual orientation. The FEDS, though the Supreme Court in Romer v. Evans, overruled the sovereign people of the State of Colorado, and struck down this state constitutional provision. But for FEDERAL intervention, the Colorado constitution would have prevented such a law. So, what say **cornopean** now? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/355 "2014-11-07T01:45:35Z")
jtgain - interesting, but wrong. It is true that the Supreme Court in a [6-3 decision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romer_v._Evans) reasoned that the 1992 Colorado state constitutional amendment failed the [rational basis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_basis_review) test. It is understood to be a lax test since “The Constitution does not prohibit legislatures from enacting stupid laws.” There are limits though. But before that the decision came before the Colorado State Supreme Court, which overturned amendment 2: they decided that it infringed upon the fundamental rights of gays to participate in the political process. This raises the question of whether the initiative, like so many others, was poorly written. Regardless, I again commend **cornopean** for changing his position and supporting the judge who ordered the Colorado baker to bake the cake for the gay wedding participants. I had always thought state rights were a phony figleaf for dissemblers with a separate agenda, but perhaps this is not always the case. Again: bravo. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/356 "2014-11-07T13:49:33Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > jtgain - interesting, but wrong. It is true that the Supreme Court in a [6-3 decision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romer_v._Evans) reasoned that the 1992 Colorado state constitutional amendment failed the [rational basis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_basis_review) test. It is understood to be a lax test since “The Constitution does not prohibit legislatures from enacting stupid laws.” There are limits though. > > But before that the decision came before the Colorado State Supreme Court, which overturned amendment 2: they decided that it infringed upon the fundamental rights of gays to participate in the political process. This raises the question of whether the initiative, like so many others, was poorly written. The Colorado Supreme Court used its interpretation of the national constitution as its basis for striking down the amendment. (Obvious a state constitutional amendment cannot violate a state constitution—it is a part of the same on equal footing to the other provisions and superior to older provisions if there is a conflict). Because of the left’s view of the role of the federal government, the people of Colorado were unable to prevent these types of laws. So, if I was **coropean** I would re-reconsider my view, because the Judge’s decision was one based upon federal intrusion. The amendment was not at all vague. The Court simply held that it was unconstitutional to have this type of amendment because it made it harder for gays to pass laws favorable to them. If I want to, say, raise the state speed limit to 75, I have to convince the legislature. If gay want these protections, under the amendment, they would first have to repeal the amendment, then convince the legislature: a more difficult and according to the Court and unconstitutional burden. Sounds nice, but it seems like everything in the constitution adds that additional burden. If I want to propose a law authorizing the death penalty without trial, slavery, or raising the voting age to 19, I must likewise deal with that extra step. I’m not sure what constitutional amendments would ever be valid if that reasoning was taken to its logical endpoint. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=17)