# question for liberals; you've won, now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915 "2014-10-20T14:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/21 "2014-10-20T15:04:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you got any evidence that that is actually happening? > **[Houston Narrows The Scope Of Controversial Subpoena Of Pastors' Sermons](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/10/17/357022015/houston-narrows-the-scope-of-controversial-subpoena-of-pastors-sermons)** > > The subpoenas — at the crossroads of church and state and born out of a lawsuit over an equal rights ordinance — drew ire from national organizations and Sen. Ted Cruz. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/22 "2014-10-20T15:04:37Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > but my question applies to for-profit businesses as well. Will Christian bakers be forced to make cakes for gay couples? will muslim taxis be forced to carry passengers who have alcohol? will the KKK and flat-earthers be allowed to peacefully march in public spaces? and believe me…I totally agree that the KKK and flat-earthers are stark crazy but that’s just the point.……free speech is about protecting the rights of exactly these kind of people. > > and what about the pastors in Houston who were asked to turn over their sermons? Why do you think most of this hasn’t happened? Or shouldn’t? You run a business you don’t get to discriminate against protected groups. Y’know- that’s a good thing. > [@cornopean](#): > > [Houston Narrows The Scope Of Controversial Subpoena Of Pastors' Sermons : The Two-Way : NPR](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/10/17/357022015/houston-narrows-the-scope-of-controversial-subpoena-of-pastors-sermons) Because nonprofit churches can’t engage in political action or use the pulpit to do so. Doesn’t matter what the content of the speech is- pro SSM or anti, they can’t use the pulpit as a political stumping place. > [@cornopean](#): > > I can agree to that. but will you agree to allow me to refuse to bake a cake for gay couples and allow Muslims not to taxi people who have alcohol and allow flat-earthers to operate their own schools, etc. etc.? You can have whatever thoughts or opinions you want, but when you turn them into actions that impinge of the rights of others to freely live their lives it becomes a problem. How many taxis does someone have to be turned away from for carrying alcohol before their life is negatively impacted by someone running a business. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/23 "2014-10-20T15:07:27Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Why do you think most of this hasn’t happened? Or shouldn’t? > > You run a business you don’t get to discriminate against protected groups. Y’know- that’s a good thing. Well that is what I was asking. Is there a place in a liberal society for a person to run a business according to his/her own religious or philsophical views. Even if those views are unacceptable to the majority culture? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/24 "2014-10-20T15:08:35Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Well that is what I was asking. Is there a place in a liberal society for a person to run a business according to his/her own religious or philsophical views. Even if those views are unacceptable to the majority culture? If it’s open to the general public, no. Why do you want to allow discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/25 "2014-10-20T15:08:42Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > [Houston Narrows The Scope Of Controversial Subpoena Of Pastors' Sermons : The Two-Way : NPR](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/10/17/357022015/houston-narrows-the-scope-of-controversial-subpoena-of-pastors-sermons) Ever try reading for content? From _your_ cite: > [@](#): > > " ‘We don’t need to intrude on matters of faith to have equal rights in Houston, and it was never the intention of the city of Houston to intrude on any matters of faith or to get between a pastor and their parishioners,’ Parker said. ‘We don’t want their sermons, we want the instructions on the petition process. That’s always what we wanted and, again, they knew that’s what we wanted because that’s the subject of the lawsuit.’ > "Opponents took advantage of the broad original language, Parker said, to deliberately misinterpret the city’s intent and spur what City Attorney David Feldman called a ‘media circus.’ … > " ‘If during the course of the sermon — and I doubt this very much — a pastor took 15 or 20 minutes to go into detail about how the petition process goes, then that’s part of the discovery,’ she said. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/26 "2014-10-20T15:09:28Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/27 "2014-10-20T15:10:25Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Well that is what I was asking. Is there a place in a liberal society for a person to run a business according to his/her own religious or philsophical views. Even if those views are unacceptable to the majority culture? Yes and no. You can close your business on Sat or Sunday if you wish to observe the Sabbath, since that affects all possible customers equally. Turn away specific customers because you don’t like their morals, beliefs, lifestyle etc- no. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/28 "2014-10-20T15:13:25Z")
This is just another rehashing of the “but if you’re really tolerant, you have to tolerate my intolerance!” argument And the answer is still no. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/29 "2014-10-20T15:13:57Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I can agree to that. but will you agree to allow me to refuse to bake a cake for gay couples and allow Muslims not to taxi people who have alcohol and allow flat-earthers to operate their own schools, etc. etc.? I feel a business should be open to _all_ the public. And I’d be just as against a gay-owned business refusing to serve anti-gay Christians. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/30 "2014-10-20T15:14:48Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > If it’s open to the general public, no. > > Why do you want to allow discrimination? b/c it is becoming increasingly obvious that you just can’t trust the powers that be to use their power to protect the rights of minorities. I used to like anti-discrimination laws too until I started to see ominous signs that the powers that be will use such laws to shut down groups they disagree with. I think this should be a concern for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/31 "2014-10-20T15:16:10Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Will such groups be allowed to educate their own children Maybe it’s because I’m a liberal, but I find the idea that just because someone bears your genes, that gives you the right to cram any shit you want into their defenceless brains, to be completely repugnant. “Their own children” really is “The children they own”, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/32 "2014-10-20T15:16:11Z")
Whatever happens, I hope asking silly questions like this becomes a hanging offense. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/33 "2014-10-20T15:17:13Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > b/c it is becoming increasingly obvious that you just can’t trust the powers that be to use their power to protect the rights of minorities. On the other hand, you can’t trust the other side to protect the rights of minors, so it’s a wash… ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/34 "2014-10-20T15:18:29Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I feel a business should be open to _all_ the public. And I’d be just as against a gay-owned business refusing to serve anti-gay Christians. I agree…such laws make us feel good…until you are in the minority. Then you start to see things differently. This is why I am increasingly driven to libertarian thinking. I just don’t have any confidence that the powers that be will use their power to protect me. Instead, they will use it to shut down any speech they don’t like or that is culturally unacceptable. and frankly…I don’t care what political or religious stripe you are.….if this doesn’t concern you, then just wait until whoever is in power uses their power to go after you. We already know the IRS went after tea party groups. now the mayor of Houston is going after fundamentalist christian pastors. you don’t have to be a Christian to be worried about the general direction things appear to be headed. This concerns all groups and religions. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/35 "2014-10-20T15:18:37Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > b/c it is becoming increasingly obvious that you just can’t trust the powers that be to use their power **to protect the rights of minorities.** I used to like anti-discrimination laws too until I started to see ominous signs that the powers that be will use such laws to shut down groups they disagree with. I think this should be a concern for everyone. Christians are not a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/36 "2014-10-20T15:19:29Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > b/c it is becoming increasingly obvious that you just can’t trust the powers that be to use their power to protect the rights of minorities. I used to like anti-discrimination laws too until I started to see ominous signs that the powers that be will use such laws to shut down groups they disagree with. I think this should be a concern for everyone. Can you provide a few examples of entities that have shut down groups they disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/37 "2014-10-20T15:20:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > On the other hand, you can’t trust the other side to protect the rights of minors, so it’s a wash… well then libertarianism represents the last best hope for a truly free society. no? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/38 "2014-10-20T15:21:04Z")
I think that a baker doesn’t have the right to discriminate against protected classes in deciding who they will bake a cake for. In my opinion, a baker should not be able to refuse to bake a cake for a black person on the basis that the customer is black. They should not be able to refuse to bake a cake for a Christian on the basis that the customer is Christian. And I don’t think that a baker should be able to refuse to bake a cake for a gay person on the basis that the customer is gay. On the other hand, drinking or possessing alcohol is not a protected class. If a Muslim, Mormon, or Baptist cab driver wanted to refuse service to someone reeking of alcohol, then I don’t see how the government has an interest in that. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/39 "2014-10-20T15:21:07Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Can you provide a few examples of entities that have shut down groups they disagree with? > **[IRS targeting controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy)** > > In 2013, the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS), under the Obama administration, revealed that it had selected political groups applying for tax-exempt status for intensive scrutiny based on their names or political themes. This led to wide condemnation of the agency and triggered several investigations, including a Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) criminal probe ordered by United States Attorney General Eric Holder. Conservatives claimed that they were specifically targeted by t... ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/40 "2014-10-20T15:21:14Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > b/c it is becoming increasingly obvious that you just can’t trust the powers that be to use their power to protect the rights of minorities. I used to like anti-discrimination laws too until I started to see ominous signs that the powers that be will use such laws to shut down groups they disagree with. I think this should be a concern for everyone. Every "sign"you’ve posted to this thread has been a gross mischaracterization of what is going on. You honestly want to tell me that the poor disenfranchised Christians have much to worry about about being discriminated against? The entire social structure is set up around the Christian majority. Why do public schools have winter breaks that happen to always fall around Christmas? Or spring breaks that magically start on Good Friday and go over Easter? Why are most businesses, if they close on the weekends, close on Sunday? McD’s offers friday fish sandwich deals during lent and no one bats an eye- one BK in San Fran offers their burger wrapped in a rainbow wrapper and people go apeshit? You really think our Christian hetero-normative society is really in that much danger??? > [@cornopean](#): > > [IRS targeting controversy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy) Again, not true. [QUOTE=from your cite] On September 5, 2014, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations released its report on the controversy.[147] The subcommittee’s majority report, authored by subcommittee chairman Senator Carl Levin and submitted for the subcommittee’s Democrats, concurred with TIGTA’s finding that inappropriate screening criteria were used but concluded that there was no intentional wrongdoing or political bias in the use of the criteria. The majority faulted TIGTA for omitting from its report that liberal groups were also targeted for additional screening and that previous TIGTA inquiries found no indication of political bias at the IRS.[148] The subcommittee’s Republican minority submitted a dissenting report authored by ranking member Senator John McCain which broadly validated the TIGTA report and accused the majority of minimizing bias against conservative groups, noting that most of the groups targeted for additional scrutiny were conservative.[149] [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=3)