# question for liberals; you've won, now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915 "2014-10-20T14:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/81 "2014-10-20T17:19:53Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > ten years ago, I wouldn’t have hesitated. Now I think differently. Now, I would support the right of the racist idiot to not serve races he doesn’t like. and the reason I take this line is precisely b/c I don’t trust the govt to protect the rights of African-Americans, gays, Muslims, Christians, women, etc. It hasn’t done it in the past and there are increasing signs that it isn’t going to do it in the future. frankly, I trust the free-market to punish business owners (like the one you mention) far more than I trust the govt to do so. right now, the govt is very much anti-racism. but that could change and then every true liberal would beg for the rights I described above. I think we are all just plain mistaken if we think that the powers-that-be are going to respect the rights of the minorities of whatever color or religion. History shows the opposite to be the case. Your argument borders on the absurd. “I don’t trust the government to protect the rights of minorities so I am against supporting a government party that runs on the platform of protecting the rights of minorities”. In fact, your argument is an excellent example of a bizarre (or perhaps Bizarro would be more accurate) line of thinking common to the right. That the only “freedoms” worth preserving are the rights of bigots to oppress minorities, for employers to treat their employees like serfs, for the super-wealthy to maintain control over the vast majority of economic assets and for the poor to live with their poor decision to not be born to middle-class family in an affluent suburb. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/82 "2014-10-20T17:21:57Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > well then libertarianism represents the last best hope for a truly free society. no? No. Libertarianism is anti-freedom. It would inevitably result in plutocracy or neo-feudalism of one variety or another. > [@WhyNot](#): > > Funny, the only actual cases kinda sorta like this I can think of went the other way entirely. Conservative pharmacists can refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control and abortion drugs. Churches (not for profit businesses run by pastors) can refuse to marry gay couples. Businesses that provide comprehensive health care for women are being shut down by TRAP laws if they provide medical, non-surgical abortions. And if you go farther back, there used to be entire towns that refused to serve black people in any way. There was even a reference book published for black people who traveled, to let them know where they could and could not go for food, gas, motels rooms and so on. As has been said, this appears to be a matter of projection; of the Right projecting their own behavior on the “Left”\*. \*Which is really just the moderates, such as they are. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/83 "2014-10-20T17:25:08Z")
OP should consider that, if Christians become the true minority, they will still be able to walk into a bakery run by dope-smoking hippie atheist queers and order a cake. With or without dong decorations. [SIZE=“1”]“We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.”[/SIZE] ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/84 "2014-10-20T18:08:04Z")
I like how the OP has essentially admitted that the only reason he’s become a libertarian is that it’s no longer politically feasible for him to discriminate. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/85 "2014-10-20T18:11:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I like how the OP has essentially admitted that the only reason he’s become a libertarian is that it’s no longer politically feasible for him to discriminate. Well, hey, he sees \*ominous potential \*in the air that one day groups might strip away people’s rights, so we’d better do it now to ensure it will never happen. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/86 "2014-10-20T18:11:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. Libertarianism is anti-freedom. It would inevitably result in plutocracy or neo-feudalism of one variety or another. Not necessarily. Do we all know where the term “libertarian” comes from, and what it still means in most of the world? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/87 "2014-10-20T18:15:06Z")
It means a number of things in the rest of the world, none of which are directly along the lines of the original meaning. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/88 "2014-10-20T18:25:32Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > well then libertarianism represents the last best hope for a truly free society. no? You misspelled anarchism, there. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/89 "2014-10-20T18:27:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It means a number of things in the rest of the world, none of which are directly along the lines of the original meaning. Not really; in many countries it still refers to its roots in the anti-authoritarian Left, opposed to both capitalism and the State. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/90 "2014-10-20T18:30:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You misspelled anarchism, there. Neither one is a last, best hope. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/91 "2014-10-20T18:36:13Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > when pastors are forced to turn over their sermons so they can be inspected by bureacrats and there is no outcry from liberals against this egregious violation of their free speech, then I conclude that true liberalism is dead. the real liberals today are the libertarians. Has it dawned on you yet that every single example you’ve used so far has been incorrect – a misrepresentation of the actual reality? > [@cornopean](#): > > will muslim taxis be forced to carry passengers who have alcohol? will the KKK and flat-earthers be allowed to peacefully march in public spaces? Groups defined by race, ethnicity, religion, gender, and sexual orientation should be protected by law as a foundational principle of non-discrimination. Alcoholics, bigots, and flat-earthers are not a protected group. The comparison is ludicrously irrational. > [@cornopean](#): > > Now, I would support the right of the racist idiot to not serve races he doesn’t like. and the reason I take this line is precisely b/c I don’t trust the govt to protect the rights of African-Americans, gays, Muslims, Christians, women, etc. It hasn’t done it in the past and there are increasing signs that it isn’t going to do it in the future. frankly, I trust the free-market to punish business owners (like the one you mention) far more than I trust the govt to do so. right now, the govt is very much anti-racism. but that could change and then every true liberal would beg for the rights I described above. I think we are all just plain mistaken if we think that the powers-that-be are going to respect the rights of the minorities of whatever color or religion. History shows the opposite to be the case. I see. So in your opinion it was the wonderful free market that ended slavery and ended segregation in the south – the federal government had nothing to do with it, and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a fiction? Actually if you think about it for a second it was the wonderful free market that started slavery in the first place. Libertarianism is a philosophically bankrupt fantasy that observes that it’s possible for bad laws to be enacted and for government to be abusive, and therefore simplistically concludes that the best answer must be no laws at all, except for almighty property rights. But lawless anarchy has never been the answer to anything, and my “freedom” as an individual or a business to persecute or discriminate against you because I don’t like your face looks a lot less like “freedom” when you’re on the receiving end. Only when arguing with libertarians does it seem necessary to point out that the rule of law is **the basis for** – not the enemy of – a free society, because only the rule of law is subject to enactment by democratically elected legislators and vetting by the courts. Private enterprise and individual lunatics doing whatever the hell they feel like has no such constraints. One more thing. You like using the phrase “powers that be”. Sounds ominious, but what does it mean? In a society governed by law, it means the government of the people --\*\* that’s us!\*\* In a libertarian utopia, however, it would mean the tyranny of the most powerful self-interested enterprises and warlords. We’ve discussed libertarianism before and I don’t really want to rehash it further, but it needed to be said because the two things central to your broken argument are a misrepresentation of the facts about the supposed but non-existent threat of anti-discrimination laws, and thinking that libertarianism is a solution. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/92 "2014-10-20T18:36:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You misspelled anarchism, there. Not unless cornopean is also opposed to capitalism, and seeks workers’ power, along with opposing all the other abusive hierarchies in the world: racism, sexism, heterosexism, transphobia, ableism, and so on and so forth. I was semi-ninja-ed, but it’s an important point. > [@running\_coach](#): > > Neither one is a last, best hope. That depends what stance we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/93 "2014-10-20T18:37:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You misspelled anarchism, there. As bad as a libertarian society would be, in my opinion, anarchy would be far worse. Somalia is occasionally brought about, tongue-in-cheek, as an ideal libertarian society – it’s not… but it does seem to be a rather anarchous society ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/94 "2014-10-20T18:46:18Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > frankly, I trust the free-market to punish business owners (like the one you mention) far more than I trust the govt to do so. This’d be the same free market which, not that long ago, thought Blacks would make a lovely tradeable commodity, _that’s_ the free market you trust? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/95 "2014-10-20T18:47:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As bad as a libertarian society would be, in my opinion, anarchy would be far worse. Somalia is occasionally brought about, tongue-in-cheek, as an ideal libertarian society – it’s not… but it does seem to be a rather anarchous society Anarch_y_ doubtless would be worse than libertarianism. What the fuck does that have to do with anarch_ism_, though? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/96 "2014-10-20T18:47:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This’d be the same free market which, not that long ago, thought Blacks would make a lovely tradeable commodity, _that’s_ the free market you trust? Well, it _was_ awfully profitable. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/97 "2014-10-20T18:47:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you got any evidence that that is actually happening? The City of Houston demanded that all pastors, etc. hand over copies of their sermons concerning same-sex marriage, gay rights or anything to do with Mayor Parker. As of today, however, they are “amending” that demand to be speeches, not sermons. Either way, they are wrong and I hope they get a hearty “up yours!” from all concerned. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/98 "2014-10-20T18:48:37Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Neither one is a last, best hope. Well, no. That’s B5 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/99 "2014-10-20T18:50:44Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Not unless cornopean is also opposed to capitalism, and seeks workers’ power Slight nit - syndicalist/socialist flavours of anarchism are not the only streams, there are streams that don’t really concern themselves with labour (not _my_ stream, but still) ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/100 "2014-10-20T18:52:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As bad as a libertarian society would be, in my opinion, anarchy would be far worse. Somalia is occasionally brought about, tongue-in-cheek, as an ideal libertarian society – it’s not… but it does seem to be a rather anarchous society That might be a case of libertarian capitalism, for all the world to see, but it’s definitely not anarchism. Contrast with anarchist Catalonia/Spanish Revolution, the Ukraine Free Territory, Paris Commune, the Zapatistas, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=6)