# question for liberals; you've won, now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915 "2014-10-20T14:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/101 "2014-10-20T18:54:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Slight nit - syndicalist/socialist flavours of anarchism are not the only streams, there are streams that don’t really concern themselves with labour (not _my_ stream, but still) OK, sure. That too. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/102 "2014-10-20T18:58:03Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Can you provide a few examples of entities that have shut down groups they disagree with? Well, there was that time the House Republicans abused their power to destroy ACORN. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/103 "2014-10-20T18:59:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I do see the reasoning behind the OP-He thinks that if the Right Wing got full control over the country they would restrict their opponents to the max, so it only makes sense that the left would _of course_ do the same, right? Check out this thread. It’s from Democratic Underground, a liberal message board. It may give you some idea. > **[Our Freedom of Expression Is Killing Us - Democratic Underground Forums](https://www.democraticunderground.com/10021351108)** ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/104 "2014-10-20T19:01:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Anarch_y_ doubtless would be worse than libertarianism. > > What the fuck does that have to do with anarch_ism_, though? Forgive my ignorance, please. Reading up on anarchism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/105 "2014-10-20T19:05:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Check out this thread. It’s from Democratic Underground, a liberal message board. It may give you some idea. > > [http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021351108](http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021351108) This post doesn’t seem to have been well received at all by the other posters. This is a pretty extreme position, and not at all common among US liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/106 "2014-10-20T19:06:19Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Not necessarily. Do we all know where the term “libertarian” comes from, and what it still means in most of the world? Do we have any reason to care, beyond historical curiosity? What matters is what it means now. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As bad as a libertarian society would be, in my opinion, anarchy would be far worse. Somalia is occasionally brought about, tongue-in-cheek, as an ideal libertarian society – it’s not… but it does seem to be a rather anarchous society It’s brought up as _what libertarianism would get you,_ not as the ideal; the ideal is impossible. Libertarianism is like communism; an ideology that promises a utopia but would in reality create a dystopia because it completely ignores what human beings and human societies are actually like. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/107 "2014-10-20T19:13:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Do we have any reason to care, beyond historical curiosity? What matters is what it means now. Yes, because that’s what it still means in most of the world, and many of us in the US are trying to preserve that meaning, because it makes more sense, and because we started it! > [@](#): > > It’s brought up as _what libertarianism would get you,_ not as the ideal; the ideal is impossible. Libertarianism is like communism; an ideology that promises a utopia but would in reality create a dystopia because it completely ignores what human beings and human societies are actually like. Not really. Marx had no patience for utopians. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/108 "2014-10-20T19:23:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Check out this thread. It’s from Democratic Underground, a liberal message board. It may give you some idea. > > [http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021351108](http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021351108) As liberal message boards go, it’s a piece of shit. I’ve always had problems with it’s censorship of unpopular opinions and the obviously biased moderators. It is not at the forefront of liberal thought. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/109 "2014-10-20T19:28:50Z")
Taking the broader view, I think most people, liberal or conservative, are prone to letting power corrupt them. Add in a dash of “But I’m censuring/oppressing my opponents for the common GOOD; their influence is corrosive to society!” or “Time for payback, I’m going to enjoy this!” and you have the ingredients for tyranny. It’s human nature. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/110 "2014-10-20T19:31:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Taking the broader view, I think most people, liberal or conservative, are prone to letting power corrupt them. Add in a dash of “But I’m censuring/oppressing my opponents for the common GOOD; their influence is corrosive to society!” or “Time for payback, I’m going to enjoy this!” and you have the ingredients for tyranny. > It’s human nature. That’s one of the reasons freedom of speech is so important – other rights can’t be protected without freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/111 "2014-10-20T19:34:35Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The City of Houston demanded that all pastors, etc. hand over copies of their sermons concerning same-sex marriage, gay rights or anything to do with Mayor Parker. No they didn’t. They subpoenaed the records of a subset of pastors in the City of Houston. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/112 "2014-10-20T19:39:49Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The City of Houston demanded that all pastors, etc. hand over copies of their sermons concerning same-sex marriage, gay rights or anything to do with Mayor Parker. > > As of today, however, they are “amending” that demand to be speeches, not sermons. Either way, they are wrong and I hope they get a hearty “up yours!” from all concerned. Citation, please. Not to say that I don’t believe you, but your track record is pretty abysmal when it comes to making accurate statements of fact. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why did Lois take the fifth, then? Good question! Two better questions: 1. Why the fuck does it matter? 2. Why did the independent senate investigation come back with no evidence of politically motivated wrongdoing? Conspiracy-monger all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that the most authoritative statement on the subject boils down to [“the lists were inappropriate but there was no politically motivated misconduct”](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/09/05/senate-subcommittee-report-on-irs-tea-party-targeting/15130715/). Beyond that, I don’t particularly _care_ who decided not to testify or why. > [@](#): > > The mayor of Houston is not in a position to determine, or enforce, laws about tax-exempt status. > > Anyway, should this church remain tax exempt? The pastor’s speech seems really political. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix-AMYos0Js](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix-AMYos0Js) Good question! Is it advocating that its members sign a specific position or endorse a specific political candidate or party? There are rules in place here, and the suggestion is that various churches in Houston violated them. > [@](#): > > You’re mistaken, again. The IRS controversy was over 501(c)(4)s, not threes. Okay, so I was wrong. This does nothing to dispel the larger point - the IRS was _doing its job_ in investigating these tax-exempt political organizations. Such organizations run a fine line between political campaigning and political donorship. One is taxable; the other is not. Given the way these c4s ballooned in number at that time, the IRS was absolutely justified in checking them out. Can we please not rehash this stupid debate _again_? Let the asinine right-wing conspiracy theory die already. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/113 "2014-10-20T19:39:54Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > You seem to have a tendency to tell half of a story to make your point. The IRS went after liberal groups as well. Were any groups actually “shut down”? It was my understanding the groups had applied for special tax status and such status was delayed or denied, though the groups’ operations were not affected. I admit my understanding may not be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/114 "2014-10-20T19:40:55Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > That might be a case of libertarian capitalism, for all the world to see, but it’s definitely not anarchism. Contrast with anarchist Catalonia/Spanish Revolution, **the Ukraine Free Territory** , Paris Commune, the Zapatistas, etc. Saddest story in the world right there. That place just _worked_, didn’t it ? Fukken bolshos ruining everything… bassards, allbassards… oi barkeep, two of the same ! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/115 "2014-10-20T19:43:13Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Yes, because that’s what it still means in most of the world, and many of us in the US are trying to preserve that meaning, because it makes more sense, and because we started it! But it means what it means here in America, and when it comes to American politics I don’t care what the word means in some _other_ country. > [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Not really. Marx had no patience for utopians. And? He’s been dead a long time, and wasn’t an actual leader of anything while he was alive anyway. What matters is what actual communists promised, and what they delivered. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/116 "2014-10-20T19:55:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Taking the broader view, I think most people, liberal or conservative, are prone to letting power corrupt them. Add in a dash of “But I’m censuring/oppressing my opponents for the common GOOD; their influence is corrosive to society!” or “Time for payback, I’m going to enjoy this!” and you have the ingredients for tyranny. > It’s human nature. That’s why decentralization is so important. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Saddest story in the world right there. That place just _worked_, didn’t it ? Fukken bolshos ruining everything… bassards, allbassards… oi barkeep, two of the same ! Yes! > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But it means what it means here in America, and when it comes to American politics I don’t care what the word means in some _other_ country. It’s a global movement, dealing with global issues, and besides, I don’t want to surrender to Randroids and the like. > [@](#): > > And? He’s been dead a long time, and wasn’t an actual leader of anything while he was alive anyway. What matters is what actual communists promised, and what they delivered. How many serious Communists have ever promised utopias? Do Randroids, for that matter? I don’t like to accuse my opponents of things they haven’t done. Straw men, and such. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/117 "2014-10-20T19:55:49Z")
> [@The left hates free speech](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-left-hates-free-speech/673720/4): > > They are the left b/c they left liberalism behind and are fast becoming marxist. Hey **Cornopean** , does this still accurately represent your position on liberalism? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/118 "2014-10-20T20:03:04Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Good question! Two better questions: > > 1. Why the fuck does it matter? > 2. Why did the independent senate investigation come back with no evidence of politically motivated wrongdoing? 1. Why was Lois held in contempt of Congress? 2. Why wouldn’t Holder do anything about it? > [@](#): > > Is it advocating that its members sign a specific position or endorse a specific political candidate or party? There are rules in place here, and the suggestion is that various churches in Houston violated them. “God damn America” is a pretty specific political position. But somehow, he gets a pass. Why is that? > [@](#): > > Okay, so I was wrong. This does nothing to dispel the larger point - the IRS was _doing its job_ in investigating these tax-exempt political organizations. Such organizations run a fine line between political campaigning and political donorship. One is taxable; the other is not. Given the way these c4s ballooned in number at that time, the IRS was absolutely justified in checking them out. Can we please not rehash this stupid debate _again_? Let the asinine right-wing conspiracy theory die already. You know who else has a (c)(4)? Organizing for America, aka [barackobama.com](http://barackobama.com) Did they receive extra scrutiny from Lois Lerner? Did Senator Durbin write the IRS to request extra examination of that organization? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/119 "2014-10-20T20:07:01Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The City of Houston demanded that all pastors, etc. hand over copies of their sermons concerning same-sex marriage, gay rights or anything to do with Mayor Parker. > > As of today, however, they are “amending” that demand to be speeches, not sermons. Either way, they are wrong and I hope they get a hearty “up yours!” from all concerned. It’s already been pointed out that this is wrong: the subpoena didn’t target ALL pastors. Moreover, the subpoena emanates from a lawsuit brought against the city by a group affiliated with the pastors. In other words, they brought on the investigation themselves by virtue of suing in court. It wasn’t merely a case of the city deciding to target “minority” Christians. I presume that a proponent of libertarianism is ok with the bringing of a lawsuit for an attempted redress of grievances. Or else how are private individuals supposed to enforce their property rights (without resorting to vigilante justice)? If you choose to do so, however, then it’s only reasonable to expect the defendant to defend their side; as part and parcel of that defense is the requesting of documents and information that might lead to admissible evidence beneficial to their case (and discovery requests are always written to be as broad and all encompassing as possible. The respondent then raises as many objections as they can legitimately justify, and a judge is left to find the middle ground). You want to play ball, then you have to be willing to let your opponent take a few swings. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915/120 "2014-10-20T20:08:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Taking the broader view, I think most people, liberal or conservative, are prone to letting power corrupt them. Add in a dash of “But I’m censuring/oppressing my opponents for the common GOOD; their influence is corrosive to society!” or “Time for payback, I’m going to enjoy this!” and you have the ingredients for tyranny. > > It’s human nature. That’s why we have laws, democratic processes, constitutional principles, and judicial oversight. Eliminate those safeguards, and tyranny of economically powerful self-interested individuals replaces governance. _ **Because** _ it’s human nature. That’s why anti-government crusaders and libertarian idealists are not just fools, but dangerous fools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-liberals-youve-won-now-what/701915.md?page=7)