# question for LoTR nerds: **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 10, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225 "2002-08-10T01:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/21 "2002-08-11T21:51:33Z")
It also seems to me that another way of phrasing the OP would be “Couldn’t the good guys use their magic and/or other powers to put the ring beyond Sauron’s reach?” But it is established in the book that at this time Sauron is the most powerful being in Middle Earth. Even if the good guys were able to build a big enough rocket, it didn’t misfire, etc, etc, Sauron would be able to build an even bigger, faster rocket and send one of his minions (a Ringwraith?) up on it. It’s quite clear Good can’t win this battle using either “Magic” power, or that which we know as technology. ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/22 "2002-08-12T00:18:53Z")
First of all, I’m not certain that Mount Doom is the only place that the ring can be destroyed. If memory serves, Gandalf thought that dragons might work, but none were left. The dragons were certainly able to destroy some of the dwarf rings. Sauron made several blunders. For example, if Sauron had used all his forces to search for the ring, Frodo would never have reached Mordor and when Sauron had the ring again…let’s just say that none could stand against him. I do have a question though. Did Sauron actually die when the ring was destroyed? After all, Sauron is a minor god of sorts…I would think that would make completely destroying him impossible… ---
**Author:** ![Genseric](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Genseric](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genseric)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/23 "2002-08-12T01:04:46Z")
Damn, I just re-read the end sequence of the Chapter: Mount Doom. All the dozens of times I’ve read it, and it still gives me chills. Suffice it to say, the following text is going to be heavy on the spoilers. The spoiler box is becoming cumbersome. If you, the reader, have not read _Return of the King_ and wish to be blown away by the end of the film, you’d better just turn around and walk away. I don’t think Sauron _could_ have destroyed Orodruin, even if it had occurred to him that the Ring might be destroyed there. I think it is made clear in the book that the Sammath Naur is the only place the Ring can be unmade. Gandalf speculates about dragonfire as follows, > [@](#): > > _It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself._ Regarding Sauron destroying Mt. Doom, there is clearly something very important about it to Sauron. Regard the following passage. > [@](#): > > _The path was not put there for the purposes of Sam. He did not know it, but he was looking at Sauron’s Road from Barad-dur to the Sammath Naur, the Chambers of Fire. Out from the Dark Tower’s huge western gate it came over a deep abyss by a vast bridge of iron, and then passing into the plain it ran for a league between two smoking chasms, and so reached a long sloping causeway that led up on to the Mountain’s eastern side. Thence, turning and encircling all it’s wide girth from south to north, it climbed at last, high in the upper cone, but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron’s shadow-mantled fortress. Often blocked or destroyed by the tumults of the mountain’s furnaces, always that road was repaired and cleared again by the labours of countless orcs._ Plainly not a place Sauron was unconcerned with, or could easily have done away with. In fact, it was just the opposite. As far as giving up the Ring, Sam was tempted to claim it and resisted, but he had only borne it for a short while, and he willingly gave it up, as did Bilbo (although it was much more difficult for Bilbo). The fact remains that neither Sam nor Bilbo was actively trying to cast the Ring into the Cracks of Doom, and I think if they had been, they would have found themselves in the same situation as Frodo. I think it was clear that Sauron was destroyed at the end, but not by the destruction of the Ring. As the Ring passed into the fire, Barad-dur was completely demolished, and Sauron’s physical form was ended. His spirit rose as a great, black, lightning-crowned cloud that was annihilated by a wind from the west, apparently the final judgement of the Valar on him. Whether some part of his spirit remained is not revealed in the text, it is certain his power was permanently broken and he could never again affect the world in any way whatsoever. I personally think he was completely destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/24 "2002-08-12T01:36:18Z")
I’ve never been certain that Bilbo could be counting as one who gave up the Ring willingly. It always seemed to me that Gandalf had to scare the hell out of him to get him to do it. And anyway, I think you’re forgetting one who had and gave up the Ring. [spoiler]Tom Bombadil had the Ring, wore it, mocked it and gave it back to Frodo. He was completely unaffected by it. How 'bout that? My first spoiler tag. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Genseric](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Genseric](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genseric)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/25 "2002-08-12T01:54:36Z")
Never forgot good old Tom! He’s pretty much irrelevant concerning the Ring, though, since he’s really an anomaly in the world Tolkien created. Saying Tom is unaffected by the Ring, is a bit like saying grasshoppers are unaffected by money. It’s so far outside their concerns, it’s not even a factor. I think Gandalf said all there was to say about Tom at the Council of Elrond, to paraphrase, it’s not that Bombadil has any power over Ring, but the Ring has no power over him. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/26 "2002-08-12T02:02:56Z")
And I bleed that Tom didn’t make the movie. I understand why, of course, but I always wanted to be Tom Bombadil when I grew up. But just because he is unaffected by it doesn’t mean he didn’t give it up willingly. It’s just not something that interested him. Of course, had Sauron gotten the ring it sure would have affected him then. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/27 "2002-08-12T02:07:19Z")
Assuming that the Tolkien universe is shaped like ours, would it not be insanely difficult for the rocketWraiths to track down a lil’ bit of gold in the interstellar void? Nother thing: It takes ludicrous amounts of fuel to go to a point in space and back. It takes even more ludicruos amounts of fuel to search space, find a li’ piece of gold, and go back. If Sauron had access to Mad Destructive Spells™, why didn’t he use them? ---
**Author:** ![Narile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@Narile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Narile)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/28 "2002-08-12T02:14:54Z")
I think it was kind of implied that it would take the heat of a volcano to destroy the ring, the only one known to be nearby and active was Orodruin. Dragonsfire would not be hot enough, was stated pretty clearly though. It is stated in the text that Saurons spirit was not destroyed, but he had been so greatly diminished that he would no longer be able to influence or affect others. ---
**Author:** ![Genseric](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Genseric](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genseric)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/29 "2002-08-12T03:04:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*Assuming that the Tolkien universe is shaped like ours, would it not be insanely difficult for the rocketWraiths to track down a lil’ bit of gold in the interstellar void? Nother thing: It takes ludicrous amounts of fuel to go to a point in space and back. It takes even more ludicruos amounts of fuel to search space, find a li’ piece of gold, and go back. If Sauron had access to Mad Destructive Spells™, why didn’t he use them? \*\* Sauron’s power, as a Maia of Aule, was in the creating and making of things (i.e. the Rings of Power) and as a servant of Morgoth, in the domination and enslavement of the wills of others. He probably couldn’t have just smited his enemies with no trouble (although he was a formidable opponent in direct combat, it took two of the greatest warriors of elves and men, not to mention a vast army, and a seven year siege of Barad-dur, to bring him down (book, not movie)). If he had “Mad Destructive Spells” he wouldn’t have needed Ringwraiths and orcs and men. Had the Ring been launched off of the world (it’s clear from the Silmarillion that mythical Arda is not physically akin to the nature of Earth as modern science has shown, i.e. “Venus” is actually Earendil in his ship, with the Silmaril on his brow.) Sauron’s armies would have triumphed over the Captains of the West before the Black Gate of Mordor, destroyed and enslaved all the free peoples of Middle-Earth, and been able to retrieve the Ring at his leisure, which would have vouchsafed him uncontested reign over the whole of Arda. Not a pretty picture. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/30 "2002-08-12T11:25:53Z")
I haven’t read the book in a long time, but watched the DVD yesterday, and that put this question in my head: (Nor can I remember “The Hobbit”, so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but…) If Sauron / the Ringwraiths could sense the power of the ring when in use (as in Bree, or on Weathertop etc…), how come no one managed to locate Golum for all the time he had the ring in the mountain? What protected him during his time with the one ring? ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/31 "2002-08-12T11:27:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > **And I bleed that Tom didn’t make the movie. I understand why, of course, but I always wanted to be Tom Bombadil when I grew up.** I wonder who Tom Bombadil wants to be when he grows up? ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/32 "2002-08-12T12:18:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aro \* > \*\*If Sauron / the Ringwraiths could sense the power of the ring when in use (as in Bree, or on Weathertop etc…), how come no one managed to locate Golum for all the time he had the ring in the mountain? What protected him during his time with the one ring? \*\* Sauron didn’t know that Gollum had it. The ring was assumed lost (and was, until Gollum/Smeagol’s cousin Deagol found it and Smeagol killed him for it). It wasn’t until Gollum went out looking for Bilbo and the ring and was captured by Sauron that Sauron learned the ring had been found and started looking for it. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/33 "2002-08-12T12:22:56Z")
My point was that surely he could sense it’s use. The ringwraiths responded immediately to Frodos use of the ring in Bree, turning their horses to gallop to towards him. If Gollum was constantly wearing the ring (his precious), why was its power not noticed by Sauron then? ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/34 "2002-08-12T12:39:02Z")
I think it is explained that for some reason Sauron was not as powerful during the years that Gollum had the Ring, and the Ringwraiths weren’t abroad. The year the Ring was found (the last year Gollum had it) was also the year the White Council attacked Dol Guldur, and Sauron pretended to give way, but in fact moved to Modor, and only then declared himself openly. Maybe because the Ring was hidden under a mountain range, in the possesion of a very weak being, but Sauron was not the force during those years that he would be later (or that he had been before). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/35 "2002-08-12T13:16:28Z")
Of course, we all know Gollum was the **real** Hero of the War of the Ring, along with Sam. [wink] ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/36 "2002-08-12T13:46:38Z")
Ok I have a question. (soory if this had been addressed befor but there are lots of LotR threads) How does Gandalf get his staff back after escaping the Tower? ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/37 "2002-08-12T15:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > \*\*How does Gandalf get his staff back after escaping the Tower? \*\* He doesn’t. If you look closely you’ll see it’s a different staff. ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/38 "2002-08-12T20:27:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*And every person who carried it ended up going west. It just took Spoiler Guy an extra 60(?) years to do so. > > Fenris \*\* Eh, not _everyone_ who bore the Ring got to go west. There was a certain vile creature who had it for, what, 500 years? Even if he hadn’t perished at the end I doubt he would have had the will to live any longer once his Precious was gone. And I doubt the elves would’ve wanted him to sail west with them were he still alive. Sauron was actually quite close to Gollum at one time. You remember in _The Hobbit_ when Gandalf took leave of the dwarf party to go take care of some “wizard’s business” he reveals that it took several wizards to oust the Necromancer at Dol Goldur in southern Mirkwood (look at the map in the book). I believe he says that The Necromancer was Sauron trying to come to power again. As to why Sauron couldn’t detect Gollum wearing the Ring, well, remember that Bilbo and Frodo only wore it while outside, not while hiding under a mountain of rock. Maybe Sauron’s x-ray vision wasn’t fully developed yet. 🙂 What I want to know is if two bumbling Hobbits could make it all the way to Mt. Doom with the Ring and a captive in tow under the All Seeing Eye of Sauron, why couldn’t Gandalf have simply given the Ring on a chain to the Lord of the Eagles who could have made the trip in a matter of hours and be done with the whole thing? The LotE is the one that I believe rescues F & S from Mt. Doom after the deed is done so he definitely knew the way and wasn’t scared of the Nazgul enough to make the flight. So the LoTR would’ve only been a 50 page novella, so what? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/39 "2002-08-12T20:44:45Z")
Horseflesh, if you do a search for “LOTR” in the database, you’ll see that question has actually been asked and answered! I believe the final conclusion is that the Eagles didn’t really like to meddle with human affairs, and probably wouldn’t have agreed to do that. And if they had, they’d have been intercepted quite quickly by Saruman’s minions, as the lord of the eagles was quite the powerful being, which was exactly what Sauron and Saruman were looking for. Plus, you don’t give the Ring of Power to such a creature, as he would most likely have been tempted by it. The last thing Sauron expected was 2 bumbling hobbits to walk it up to his doorstep. ---
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225/40 "2002-08-12T20:55:14Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Fenris_ > > And every person who carried it ended up going west. It just took Spoiler Guy an extra 60(?) years to do so. > > \*Originally posted by Horseflesh \* > Eh, not _everyone_ who bore the Ring got to go west. There was a certain vile creature who had it for, what, 500 years? You are also forgetting Sauron who “bore” it first. He never made it to the west or I am missing the whole point of the books. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-lotr-nerds/123225.md?page=3)