# Question for non-Americans: School languages **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 29, 2016, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489 "2016-02-29T11:11:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/41 "2016-03-01T20:30:29Z")
Irish is the Gaelic spoken in Ireland. A type of Gaelic is also spoken in Scotland and place like the Isle of Man. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/42 "2016-03-01T22:08:09Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > First, I must point out that I don’t know how the Flemish educational system works. You see, in Belgium education is not a federal responsability, it is up to the “communities” (Flemish, Francophone and German-speaking) to decide what and how they teach children. > > There’s unfortunately a lot of truth to the meme that Francophones can’t be bothered to speak Dutch. I both understand and disapprove of that attitude. > > Frankly, Flemish doesn’t take you very far. Flanders, the Netherlands and that’s about it. So there’s not much incentive to learn it. In addition, all children must take it at school for at least 15 years. That’s not exactly a fun prospect when you’re a kid. Finally, there’s no denying that there’s a fair bit of French cultural supremacism at play here. The reasoning goes: “We are part of a world community of 200+ millions of speakers with a long and prestigious literary history, why should we learn what basically amounts to a minor regional language?” That, I understand, though not necessarily agree with. > > Because we live in Belgium. The majority of the population speaks Dutch. The political and economic power overwhelmingly lies in Flanders. For a lot of jobs, and actually almost all of them in and around Brussels, being bilingual and ideally trilingual French-Dutch-English is a basic requirement. Good luck trying to find a mid-to-upper level job if you don’t speak Dutch. So, out of pure courtesy but also for countless practical reasons, Francophones should speak Dutch. > > And quite a few of them do actually, especially those working in business. There was this funny scene some years ago when **Bart De Wever** , the leader of the Flemish independentist party NVA and arguably Belgium’s most powerful politician, was invited at a meeting of Francophone business leaders and all of them insisted on speaking Dutch when he was perfectly willing and able to speak French. Still, there’s no denying that Francophones who speak Dutch remain a small minority and the fact that they now start learning it at a much earlier age doesn’t seem to change that significantly. > > From what I’ve heard, French is reciprocally losing ground among the Flemish youth who speak it way less fluently than their elders, a fact that is already noticable among politicians. I can’t blame them, really but it reinforces the one country-two completely different worlds state of Belgium. Very, very interesting - thanks for the context. If I may continue this side topic, given the reality of the EU and the fact that Francophone youth can (as I understand it) just as easily get a job in Paris or Lyon as in Brussels or Mons, does that further weaken the incentive to learn Dutch? (And ditto ambitious young Dutch-speakers who can, if they’d like, just move to Amsterdam for a job.) Is the open-borders, Schengen-country dynamic of the EU further weakening Belgian national identity? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/43 "2016-03-01T23:55:58Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Dont you mean Tagalo instead of Filipino? “Tagalog” is the language’s ethnic root. It took a dictator to name it “Pilipino” and adopt it as the national language. A number of regional dialects are spoken more widely but since it is the language in the national capital, from where all nation-wide mass media emanate, it is understood by everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/44 "2016-03-02T15:22:27Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Very, very interesting - thanks for the context. If I may continue this side topic, given the reality of the EU and the fact that Francophone youth can (as I understand it) just as easily get a job in Paris or Lyon as in Brussels or Mons, does that further weaken the incentive to learn Dutch? (And ditto ambitious young Dutch-speakers who can, if they’d like, just move to Amsterdam for a job.) Is the open-borders, Schengen-country dynamic of the EU further weakening Belgian national identity? Well, after decades of silly jokes, Belgians are now seen as trendy and cool in France, something that would have been unimaginable until recently. Lots of Belgian actors, singers and tv presenters have made the move and found some real success. As for other professionals, France has always been close and Francophones have _never_ been enthusiastic about learning Dutch. There’s always been some significant comings and goings across the border anyway, going back to the 19th century and of course even before Belgium proper existed. No idea about Flemings in the Netherlands although last I heard, there was no love lost between Dutch-speaking Belgians and their northern neighbours. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/45 "2016-03-02T15:43:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Ok, have to ask. what is the difference between Irish and Gaelic? What **John Mace** said Irish is Gaelic as spoken in Ireland, there is also Scottish Gaelic and Manx (Isle of Man Gaelic). ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Windshoeffel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Max\_Windshoeffel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Windshoeffel)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/46 "2016-03-03T00:38:22Z")
In my time: 1.,2.,3.: German from the beginning. The first foreign language was mandatory English from the fifth year (age ~10). It would stay with you throughout middle and high school. A second foreign language was mandatory in the seventh year (age ~12), but you could choose from French or Latin. You could drop it again after the tenth year, I think. If you took Latin up to the twelth year (age ~17), you acquired the Great Latinum, which was necessary for certain university courses like medicine. Third foreign language was optional in the ninth year (age ~14), either French or Latin. Again, you could drop it after two years. Another foreign language was offered in the eleventh year (age ~16), namely Dutch or (IIRC) Spanish. Taken until the thirteenth and last year. In the last three years, when the class system gave way to a course system, all languages could be theoretically taken either as basic course (two hours a week) or as one of your two advanced courses (six hours a week). In reality, only English, French or Dutch were chosen by enough (ie, over ten) pupils to have an advanced course happen. 4.: Germany, specifically Northrhine-Westphalia (Education is organized at Länder level). Other Länder have other options - e.g. Danish is offered in Schleswig-Holstein, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern offer Polish, the latter also Swedish, French is first foreign language in the Saarland. Some schools present the option of Italian or Portuguese or Turkish, a few Chinese or Japanese. At some humanities-oriented schools (Ancient) Greek is offered. Russian is quite common as secondary or tertiary language in the eastern Länder. AFAIK, Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein have schools that offer Low German and locally Frisian, Brandenburg and Saxony have schools that offer Sorbian, a Slavic minority language in the Lusatia region. ---
**Author:** ![jabiru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@jabiru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabiru)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/47 "2016-03-03T07:51:37Z")
NSW, Australia. It depends on the school. Way back when I went to school, when the earth’s crust was still cooling, the only languages which were offered were Latin, French and German. I did French and German. These days Asian languages are offered at many schools (Japanese, Chinese, Indonesian are the most common) as well as more European languages (Italian, Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic). Pretty much any language can be studied to HSC level but many students who are studying languages in which there’s not a lot of interest locally have to study externally. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/48 "2016-03-03T08:08:24Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > (And ditto ambitious young Dutch-speakers who can, if they’d like, just move to Amsterdam for a job.) Is the open-borders, Schengen-country dynamic of the EU further weakening Belgian national identity? FWIW, I seem to remember a certain concern among some academics in the Netherlands that so many people were pretty effectively bilingual in English that the language itself might die out. But that sort of cultural pessimism affects perfectionist minorities in all languages I suspect. As for Belgian identity, as an outsider, I seem to remember an old joke that there was only one true Belgian, the then King. But whether the different economic and social pressures have altered the dynamics of community fractiousness more recently, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/49 "2016-03-03T10:01:34Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > **2. At what level are they taught?** > > In schools where English is the normal language of instruction, I think French begins around Grade 6 or so, but I’m not sure. In the Catholic system in Newfoundland in the 80s, it started in grade 4 (presumably that also held for the non-Catholic system at the time, and the unified system, now). Checking,[that’s also when it has to start in Ontario](https://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/amenagement/FLS.html). (Students have to take French from grades 4 to 8, plus one French credit in high school.) (Weirdly, I was under the impression it was earlier in Ontario, because I was told that I started late and would need to catch up when we moved…) [Edit - just checked the current situation in Newfoundland, and indeed, it still starts at grade 4.] ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Windshoeffel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Max\_Windshoeffel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Windshoeffel)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/50 "2016-03-03T12:56:52Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > FWIW, I seem to remember a certain concern among some academics in the Netherlands that so many people were pretty effectively bilingual in English that \*\*the language itself \*\*might die out. But that sort of cultural pessimism affects perfectionist minorities in all languages I suspect. I think this is unfounded. At least in the rural Eastern Netherlands, outside the Randstad, English is not as present as in the big cities. And if Hollander Dutch really died out, I do not expect the same fate for Flemish. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/51 "2016-03-03T14:42:04Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > In the Catholic system in Newfoundland in the 80s, it started in grade 4 (presumably that also held for the non-Catholic system at the time, and the unified system, now). Checking,[that’s also when it has to start in Ontario](https://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/amenagement/FLS.html). (Students have to take French from grades 4 to 8, plus one French credit in high school Thanks for the update. When I was in school, shortly after the Earth had cooled, we started French in Grade 7 and had three compulsory years. After that it was an elective. I don’t know what the start point currently is, because the Piper Cub has been in French immersion since starting pre-K. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489/52 "2016-03-03T15:24:14Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > As for Belgian identity, as an outsider, I seem to remember an old joke that there was only one true Belgian, the then King. But whether the different economic and social pressures have altered the dynamics of community fractiousness more recently, I don’t know. That’s not far off the mark but you probably need to add old Catholic families from the nobility. There’s actually a term for people who steadfastly cling to the notion of a unitary Belgian state: _belgicains_. The fact that we came up with a word for it shows that the attitude is somewhat unusual. The vast majority of Belgians have accepted the notion of a federal state, with 3 political regions and 3 language communities. In Flanders, the more radical elements are pushing for independance or at least a very large autonomy (confederalism). In Wallonia, extremists tend to favour a union with France ([rattachisme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rattachism)). And Brussels sometimes fancies itself as a separate European District _à la_ Washington, D.C. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-non-americans-school-languages/747489.md?page=2)