# Question for people who can sing really well **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 23, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587 "2006-03-23T14:32:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/21 "2006-03-24T04:09:28Z")
Hi, **Susan StoHelit**. Just for the helofit, Good to see you. Bussy. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/22 "2006-03-24T05:09:35Z")
> [@SusanStoHelit](#): > > I don’t necessarily want to sing opera style so that means the college is out, too. I wouldn’t be so quick to rule that out: if you call the local music department and explain what you’re looking for, you might be surprised – at the very least, you might get a referral elsewhere. 🙂 Also, you don’t have to go on to sing the style you’re taught, and I think that you’ll learn the same basics no matter what. I was trained classically (“opera style”), but have never pursued opera performance: I’ve been in original rock bands and have done musical theatre, and I’d love to join/start a jazz project. In fact, if I’m ever able to take voice lessons again I’d like to learn how to develop a jazzier vocal style. I have absolutely no regret about being taught with operettas and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/23 "2006-03-24T07:58:43Z")
> [@Figaro](#): > > If your friend can tell the difference between two notes, or recognize a tune, she’s not tone deaf… I can tell the _difference_ between two notes. What I cannot do is tell the _similarity_. For example, a low A and a high A. I hear absolutely no similarity between them. If you played a low A and a high D and told me the latter was a high A, I’d believe you. What does that make me if not tone deaf? ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/24 "2006-03-24T15:18:48Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > I wouldn’t be so quick to rule that out: if you call the local music department and explain what you’re looking for, you might be surprised – at the very least, you might get a referral elsewhere. 🙂 > > Also, you don’t have to go on to sing the style you’re taught, and I think that you’ll learn the same basics no matter what. I was trained classically (“opera style”), but have never pursued opera performance: I’ve been in original rock bands and have done musical theatre, and I’d love to join/start a jazz project. In fact, if I’m ever able to take voice lessons again I’d like to learn how to develop a jazzier vocal style. I have absolutely no regret about being taught with operettas and the like. I agree with this wholeheartedly. There definitely **are** voice teachers in the world who think there is only one acceptable way to sing, and that anyone who wants to sing differently is not worth their time, but there are also a lot of us who recognize that people sing for many reasons, and with many different ambitions. I’ve taught operatic singers, folk singers, musical theater singers, and even a few singer-songwriters in the rock vein. MInd you, once you get outside my area of specialization, which is definitely opera and classical vocal music, I’m basically just going to be dealing with basic issues of vocal function and healthy sound production - I don’t think I could teach anyone to be a great rock singer. But still, if you ask for enough referals and talk to enough teachers, you’ll find someone who is sympathetic to your goals and willing to give whatever help they can. You’d be surprised how much you can learn in a short time when you’re just starting out. Keep in mind, too, that what **Misnomer** said is important. Voice lessons usually revolve around classical music for the same reasons that introductory instrumental lessons do (piano, guitar…). It’s excellent for teaching basic technique - and regardless of the “style” you want to perform in later, those skills will be 100% transferrable. Once you know how to treat your voice as an expressive instrument - not just an extension of your speaking voice that just “is what it is,” you can apply it to any music you choose. Granted, some kinds of music benefit from the sound of a completely untrained voice. But if you’re into that, you don’t want lessons in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/25 "2006-03-24T15:29:30Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Here’s my question for people who are really good at singing: Can you sing badly on purpose? Is it difficult for you? Do you find that your voice wants to start singing right or well? I have no trouble singing in a variety of styles, including poorly. I’ve sung Broadway, Opera, C&W, Rock, off key, and currently Barbershop. Each one requries different subtleties, but the basic “rules” apply to all - proper breath support and a good resonator (how you shape your mouth and mouth cavity) are adaptable to any style ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/26 "2006-03-24T15:30:44Z")
And a quick note to anyone who wants a voice teacher: Be aware, there is no such thing as an “official” voice teacher. There are many, many people in the world who simply decide to become voice teachers because they think they know good singing when they hear it. (or, worse, they just need to make money…) There are those of us who have dedicated years to learning about singing and teaching, and performing, and who will reward your trust with good teaching tailored to your needs and ambitions. But there are also lots of self-annointed dilettantes and quacks who will just as quickly treat you to mumbo-jumbo, misinformation, self-serving ax-grinding about their failed career interests, and poorly digested rote passing on of whatever was taught to them. And, just because someone was/is themselves a good singer doesn’t mean they are a good teacher. They are different (but obviously complementary) skill sets. You should go into any new relationship with a voice teacher with healthy skepticism. Give your unreserved trust and effort for a few lessons, knowing that real progress usually means stepping outside of what is comfortable and familiar to you. Then make sure you digest the experience and make an informed decision. If you’re having alarm bells, or your questions to that teacher about what they’re doing with you and why aren’t getting satisfactorily answered, then it’s time to move on. Again…my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/27 "2006-03-24T15:34:57Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I remember seeing the NY City Ballet once where a dancer had to dance around like a clod-hopping goof, and I wondered how hard he had to fight against years of training to do it. > > My question for really good singers is, how good can someone get who has no natural ability? I understand the difference between being able to technically hit the notes, and having an interesting or pleasing tone/quality to your voice (I think). How hard is each step, first learning the notes and then learning to sound nice? > > And feel free to tell me that it’s impossible in some/many cases. I don’t mean to sound like with enough practice _anyone_ could be a good singer, because I know a lot of it is natural talent. I just know that I did become somewhat better after joining a choir, and when my friend tells me she is terrible (“tone-deaf”, and I’m not sure what that means) I say that there is some room for improvement. I have always believed that everyone can sing, at least a little. If a person is willing to put the work in to learn the technique, s/he can learn to sing properly. But the thing that makes a really good singer, the passion, the expression, cannot be learned, it can only be imitated. You either have it, or you have to fake it. And the difference can be very easily perceived. YMMV, but if you are truly interested in learning to sing, take a class or join a chorus. Some choruses offer vocal lessons for all newbies. ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/28 "2006-03-24T15:42:11Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I can tell the _difference_ between two notes. What I cannot do is tell the _similarity_. For example, a low A and a high A. I hear absolutely no similarity between them. If you played a low A and a high D and told me the latter was a high A, I’d believe you. What does that make me if not tone deaf? Obviously I can’t say. For all I know you might have a genuine physiological issue with pitch recognition. but if you can play a single note on the piano and sing it back accurately, you aren’t tone deaf. Even if you can’t, you’re probably not tone deaf. But what you’re talking about in your example is the recognition of pitch **relationships** rather than pitches themselves - and that is a skill much more so than a natural ability. Learning to parse the intervals between two different notes is a much more sophisticated skill than simply recognizing or reproducing a single note. No one knows what a major third sounds like until they are told what it is and taught how to recognize it through practice. Odd as it seems, the same goes for octaves (your low and high A example). Until you train your ear and your analytical brain to work together, it is hard to identify specific pitches and intervals. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/29 "2006-03-24T15:46:46Z")
> [@Figaro](#): > > but if you can play a single note on the piano and sing it back accurately, you aren’t tone deaf. I can’t do that either. I don’t understand how anyone does it. The note on the piano and the note that is sung don’t sound exactly the same, so how do you know they’re the same? It’s a mystery to me. > [@](#): > > But what you’re talking about in your example is the recognition of pitch **relationships** rather than pitches themselves - and that is a skill much more so than a natural ability. Interesting. Everyone else that I’ve told about this have looked at me is if I were a freak. ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/30 "2006-03-24T16:32:01Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I can’t do that either. I don’t understand how anyone does it. The note on the piano and the note that is sung **don’t sound exactly the same** , so how do you know they’re the same? It’s a mystery to me. [bolding mine] Hmmm…so if I were to play the same note twice in a row on the piano you could tell they were the same pitch? And the same if I sang the same note twice to you? The problem occurs when one is played and the other sung? Or am I reading too much into this? What I’m wondering is whether or not the difference in _tone color_ between the piano and voice might be causing the disconnect for you, rather than a failure to perceive pitch in and of itself. Mind you I’m just fishing here because you’ve got me curious, and I can’t really offer any suggestions. I’m out of my depth once we get into physiological things related to hearing and perception. All I know (from reading) is that genuine physiological tone-deafness is rare. But I’m curious about what exactly causes the disconnect for you. If we were working together it would be fun to explore the issue to see if there were ways to heighten your awareness of pitch. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/31 "2006-03-24T16:39:24Z")
> [@Figaro](#): > > Hmmm…so if I were to play the same note twice in a row on the piano you could tell they were the same pitch? And the same if I sang the same note twice to you? The problem occurs when one is played and the other sung? Or am I reading too much into this? No, that sounds right. Tap the same piano key twice - no problem. Sing the same note twice - no problem. They sound the same, just like the same word spoken twice or something. Tap a key and sing the same note, or another note, or whatever you wish to sing. It doesn’t matter to me; you’d fool me anyway. > [@](#): > > What I’m wondering is whether or not the difference in _tone color_ between the piano and voice might be causing the disconnect for you, rather than a failure to perceive pitch in and of itself. While I don’t know what tone color is, it sounds like you’re on to something. The piano doesn’t sound like the voice, so how are you supposed to know they’re the same note? > [@](#): > > All I know (from reading) is that genuine physiological tone-deafness is rare. I’m pretty sure I’m not tone deaf. I can recognize melodies and I can tell the difference between notes. I can differentiate between a great singer, a good singer and a bad singer. I can tell when someone plays or sings wrong or badly. I’m just crap at a lot of other basic musical skills. > [@](#): > > But I’m curious about what exactly causes the disconnect for you. If we were working together it would be fun to explore the issue to see if there were ways to heighten your awareness of pitch. If you’re ever in my neighborhood (south of Sweden) or can work out a way to do this over the internet, I’m all for it. ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/32 "2006-03-24T16:39:42Z")
> [@zelie zelerton](#): > > How would a person know if they sing wrongly or not? > > I ask because I used to think i was ok-ish at singing. Not great but not totally horrible. Then a friend who is very musical said once that i was singing wrong (we were singing in a group). I can’t remember what exactly she said but it was something about changing key or pitch. I’ve not had any musical training and she has had loads so obviously she can identify this stuff more. But is there some way a person can tell if they themself are singing wrong? I discussed this recently in another thread, which I can’t find at the moment. A few quick recaps (my own views, not necessarily “gospel”): 1. Singing accurately requires both an accurate “intention” (mental concept of pitch) and the physical coordination to reproduce that intention vocally. A problem with either can result in inaccurate singing. In your case, you may very well know what you _mean_ to sing, but lack the coordination to do so. Or, you may not have a sufficiently precise or accurate intent. 2. It’s very hard to perceive your own singing when you’re doing it, for several reasons. 3. Musical perception is partly a talent, but it is also greatly heightened by education and experience. You might benefit from ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/33 "2006-03-24T16:44:11Z")
> [@zelie zelerton](#): > > How would a person know if they sing wrongly or not? > > I ask because I used to think i was ok-ish at singing. Not great but not totally horrible. Then a friend who is very musical said once that i was singing wrong (we were singing in a group). I can’t remember what exactly she said but it was something about changing key or pitch. I’ve not had any musical training and she has had loads so obviously she can identify this stuff more. But is there some way a person can tell if they themself are singing wrong? **(oooops - premature posting) This is the complete version** I discussed this recently in another thread, which I can’t find at the moment. A few quick recaps (my own views, not necessarily “gospel”): 1. Singing accurately requires both an accurate “intention” (mental concept of pitch) and the physical coordination to reproduce that intention vocally. A problem with either can result in inaccurate singing. In your case, you may very well know what you _mean_ to sing, but lack the coordination to do so. Or, you may not have a sufficiently precise or accurate intent (sort of “fishing” for notes as you sing). 2. It’s very hard to perceive your own singing when you’re doing it, for two reasons. -The “answering machine” effect. Which is to say, you cannot hear your voice as others do, because most of what you hear is through bone conduction in your head. For some people, the distortion is greater than others. -When you’re singing, you’re busy, and not always able to devote attention to awareness of the results. Learning to be aware of your singing while you do it takes time and practice. 3. Musical perception is partly a talent, but it is also greatly heightened by education and experience. You might benefit from a basic ear training or music theory course. ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/34 "2006-03-24T16:56:29Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > No, that sounds right. Tap the same piano key twice - no problem. Sing the same note twice - no problem. They sound the same, just like the same word spoken twice or something. Tap a key and sing the same note, or another note, or whatever you wish to sing. It doesn’t matter to me; you’d fool me anyway. > > While I don’t know what tone color is, it sounds like you’re on to something. The piano doesn’t sound like the voice, so how are you supposed to know they’re the same note? Bingo! Very interesting. “Tone color” (sometimes called “timbre”) is simply a way of saying “what makes a thing sound like itself” - or to put it another way - the defining qualities of a sound once pitch (frequency) and loudness (amplitude) are removed. A piano sounds like a piano because of the way overtones are arrayed in its soundwaves. The same for a voice. If we couldn’t perceive tone color, language would be impossible because we’d be incapable of perceiving changes of vowel, for instance. When you hear the difference between “ah” and “eee” - you’re perceiving tone color. You may very well have an unusually acute perception of tone color which distracts you from other elements of musical sound. Out of curiosity, do you find that you’re unusually good at identifying specific people’s voices, or the sounds of particular instruments? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/35 "2006-03-24T17:04:21Z")
> [@Figaro](#): > > Out of curiosity, do you find that you’re unusually good at identifying specific people’s voices, or the sounds of particular instruments? I usually immediately recognize guest actors’ voices in cartoons, if that counts, and if I recognize such a voice but can’t identify it, it drives me crazy. As for identifying particular instruments, I’ve never really tested myself and I don’t have any idea how good other people are at it. ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/36 "2006-03-24T17:13:59Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I usually immediately recognize guest actors’ voices in cartoons, if that counts, and if I recognize such a voice but can’t identify it, it drives me crazy. As for identifying particular instruments, I’ve never really tested myself and I don’t have any idea how good other people are at it. Sounds like maybe we’ve honed in on something. I love this stuff. Thanks for the pleasant distraction during an otherwise boring day! ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/37 "2006-03-24T17:15:44Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I usually immediately recognize guest actors’ voices in cartoons, if that counts, and if I recognize such a voice but can’t identify it, it drives me crazy. As for identifying particular instruments, I’ve never really tested myself and I don’t have any idea how good other people are at it. you could probably, easily, distinguish a trumpet from a violin, or a piano from a bass guitar, but you might have trouble distinguishinga viola from a cello, or a clarinet from a saxophone. If you can make the determination between those related instruments, you may already have a good degree of that ability, and you’d only need training to turn it into a talent ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/38 "2006-03-24T17:16:42Z")
> [@Figaro](#): > > Thanks for the pleasant distraction during an otherwise boring day! Thank you too. You’re the first person ever to present an hypothesis on what’s actually wrong with me. Now I want to test my ability to recognize instruments! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/39 "2006-03-24T23:20:33Z")
Interesting thread. I can play a number of musical instruments, but singing? Is it to laugh. I’m terrible. I’ve always wanted to be able to sing, but assumed it was just not possible. Interesting that it might be possible to be at least not ghastly. ---
**Author:** ![zelie\_zelerton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/59ef9b/32.png) [@zelie\_zelerton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zelie_zelerton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587/40 "2006-03-25T00:39:43Z")
Thanks for the interesting response **Figaro**. To be honest the things most people say about music doesn’t really make much sense to me as i have synaesthesia. What you and \*\*Priceguy \*\* were saying about colour makes much more sense in my world. I know you probably didn’t mean it as i mean it but i can relate more to what you said than to any of my schoolteachers. I know a lot of people say that they are not musical. It gets me wondering if our lack of belief in musical ability is often just about a failure to communicate sensory perception in an understandible way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-people-who-can-sing-really-well/349587.md?page=3)