# question for the athiests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483 "2005-01-19T02:41:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/81 "2005-01-20T10:24:29Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > First of all, your not believing in God does not make him go away. If God exists, you have no control on whether he punishes you, rewards you, or does nothing to you for all eternity, so you really have no idea what will happen to you after you pass on. :dubious: Simple common sense tells you that someone who doesn’t believe in god isn’t worried that god is going to punish him. > [@](#): > > Secondly, it irks me when I see or hear of people, usually atheists, talking about how they feel like they’re “set free” or “really _living_”, either implying or stating outright that theists are slaves to God because of their belief and that they consider them “not really living life to its fullest” because they might be worried about what God would think. That’s a bunch of crap. Tough on you. You’re right to a point, but how people feel is how they feel. Some people are being high and might, some are just being honest. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/82 "2005-01-20T11:51:26Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Probably as sure as you are that Zeus and Apollo aren’t up there on Mount Olympus. That’s a poor analogy, but I get your point. You won’t find many sane people that think Zeus or Apollo are up there on Mount Olympus, but you will find many people, some even more intelligent than you or I, who _do_ believe in God. I used to be so sure God existed, that I’d have bet my life on it. The way I saw it, I didn’t have much to lose. Now I know better (part of growing up and all). I probably won’t ever, on this earth anyway, be _completely_ sure one way or the other. And I refuse to believe anyone who says he or she _knows_ (either way)…after all, I’m reasonably sure there are people who claim to know God exists, and people who claim to know He doesn’t. They can’t both be right,can they? Can God both exist and not exist? > [@Marley23](#): > > Simple common sense tells you that someone who doesn’t believe in god isn’t worried that god is going to punish him. Duh. I was merely pointing out that what we believe really doesn’t affect what actually will be. If God doesn’t exist, he’ll never know the difference. If God does exist, he might. Now, _why_ I pointed that out, I’m not sure. I wasn’t trying to change his mind. > [@Marley23](#): > > Tough on you. You’re right to a point, but how people feel is how they feel. Some people are being high and might, some are just being honest. I’m not doubting that some people actually feel that way, but the fact is, some of them think they’re so much better than other people (specifically, they often think they’re better than the fundamentalists), when in reality they’re doing _exactly_ the same thing they hate the fundies for doing. That’s hypocrisy, and no one likes a hypocrite. I don’t have a problem with other people being atheistic. I _do_ have a problem with people who act like they’re better than I am because I’m not an atheist, and I will _definitely_ not tolerate it. I don’t think I’m better than anyone else for any reason, _especially_ not one I can’t prove. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/83 "2005-01-20T22:17:07Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > I’m not doubting that some people actually feel that way, but the fact is, some of them think they’re so much better than other people (specifically, they often think they’re better than the fundamentalists), when in reality they’re doing _exactly_ the same thing they hate the fundies for doing. That’s hypocrisy, and no one likes a hypocrite. Eh… it might be obnoxious, but it’s unlikely to be hypocrisy unless the atheists in question are actually trying to convert you. What’s wrong with the Zeus analogy, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/84 "2005-01-23T00:47:20Z")
1. What drives my morals? I find that the word ‘moral’ is not as good a word as it used to be. It has some negative connotations these days - Intollerance, backward values, non-acceptance of diversity and liberal values. For the purpose of the question I will replace ‘moral’ with ‘right actions’. My right actions (doing the right thing) are driven by a habit of working out what the right thing to do is, and then doing it wherever possible. The habit I suppose comes from being brought up to do the right thing. They are also driven by a sense of relief that comes from having done the right thing. 2. What makes my life meaningful? Curiosity, joy of experience, imagination of future experience. Where do I derive self worth? From being valuable and likeable where I work, and elsewhere. 3. I am one of six billion people with a lifespan roughly 1/20,000 that of the timespan of the human race. I mean virtually nothing and I am extremely unlikely to mean anything in the bigger picture. Somehow (perhaps the power of ego) that doesn’t bother me. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/85 "2005-01-24T09:50:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Eh… it might be obnoxious, but it’s unlikely to be hypocrisy unless the atheists in question are actually trying to convert you. What’s wrong with the Zeus analogy, by the way? I think I covered that with this: > [@Othersider](#): > > You won’t find many sane people that think Zeus or Apollo are up there on Mount Olympus, but you will find many people, some even more intelligent than you or I, who do believe in God. …and just in case you were going to ask, I mean most theists. I suppose I could have clarified that a little better. Indeed, I don’t think it too farfetched to say that most of us would consider someone who professed to believe in Zeus and/or Apollo either a lunatic or a joker. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/86 "2005-01-24T11:08:46Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > Indeed, I don’t think it too farfetched to say that most of us would consider someone who professed to believe in Zeus and/or Apollo either a lunatic or a joker. Only because it’s so rare. The point was that belief in god is for him as alien to you as believing in those Greek gods. I don’t see how that invalidates his example, and I’m not sure why you were picking at it. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/87 "2005-01-24T11:33:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Only because it’s so rare. The point was that belief in god is for him as alien to you as believing in those Greek gods. I don’t see how that invalidates his example, and I’m not sure why you were picking at it. It doesn’t invalidate _his_ belief. I was trying to make a case as to why others might have a different point of view. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/88 "2005-01-24T14:19:01Z")
Doesn’t Fenris follow Wotan? I could swear someone on here is a norse… pagan, I suppose, is the only appropriate term. As far as people following Zeus, I am aware of at least one person, who is the child of immigrants from Greece, that claims to follow those gods. Admittedly, I didn’t find it out until I knew that person for fifteen years, but that person claims that it was something that has remained hidden for many many years, and a family thing. I am unable to verify the validity of his beliefs in the age of his beliefs. Assuming this person is telling the truth, and that certain ‘mystery cults’ still exist, how does this change your opinion? A second point: An observant jew does not have to believe in god, or have faith, he simply has to follow the rules laid out for him. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/89 "2005-01-24T17:49:20Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > It doesn’t invalidate _his_ belief. I was trying to make a case as to why others might have a different point of view. Am I missing something? He wasn’t talking about anybody else’s point of view. You asked if he was sure there’s no god and he answered with an analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/90 "2005-01-24T18:10:59Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Doesn’t Fenris follow Wotan? I could swear someone on here is a norse… pagan, I suppose, is the only appropriate term. **Freyr** , not **Fenris** – though his tutelary deity is his namesake, not Wotan. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/91 "2005-01-24T18:58:30Z")
Thank you, Poly. I was close. As for a stone cold atheist, I do know one. He had a bracelet that helped him with moral issues. It referred to a man who came from afar, and did only good. Admittedly, he was fictional, but the abstract concept helped. When he was tempted, he looked at it, and asked, “What Would Superman Do?” I’m not joking. I tried it once or twice, and it actually seemed to help me make up my mind, too. It’s all about asking yourself what someone wiser would do, and then doing it, without all the baggage in your head weighing you down. I have a lot of weird friends. But then again, I know you people, don’t I? ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/92 "2005-01-24T19:25:20Z")
> [@tlk1](#): > > 1. What drives your morals - other than the deterent of having to spend part of your time alive in jail? What prevents you from doing whatever it takes to get what you want when you want it other than the long arm of the law? Does right or wrong REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things?TLK1 Treat people the way I would want them to treat me. Yep, I know it’s in the Bible, but that premise exists everywhere. > [@tlk1](#): > > 1. What makes your life truly meaningful? Career, money, romance or what? Where do you derive your self worth?TLK1 Helping people out. Having the love of someone I love. > [@tlk1](#): > > 1. What is the meaning of your existence? Does your life - or anyones - really matter on this rock?TLK1 Meaning, shmeaning. My life only matters to me and the people in my small circle of influence. ---
**Author:** ![EmeraldGrue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@EmeraldGrue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmeraldGrue)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/93 "2005-01-24T19:36:22Z")
> [@tlk1](#): > > 1. What drives your morals […] Does right or wrong REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things? **Cervaise** said it in post 69, I think: morality is a product of both biology and culture, and this does not detract from morals’ worth. The two major principles driving my actions are living by the Golden Rule and improving or fixing the world. > [@tlk1](#): > > 1. What makes your life truly meaningful? Career, money, romance or what? Where do you derive your self worth? This is obviously different for different people. I am worthy partly because I’m a living being–that’s the unalterable core. My self-worth also depends on the things I do for other people, and on how I develop my mind by study, scholarship, and thinking critically. > [@tlk1](#): > > 1. What is the meaning of your existence? Does your life - or anyones - really matter on this rock? 1. At first it seems like ordinary individual lives don’t really matter in the grand sweep of History or Cosmic Evolution or whatever. We can’t all be Kant or Buddha or John Lennon or anyone who will be remembered very long. But then: > [@](#): > > Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Point being, we exist for such a brief time–it is _an incredibly big deal_ how we spend our lives. Life really does matter a lot. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/94 "2005-01-24T20:46:55Z")
> [@tlk1](#): > > Questions for the athiests - > > 1. What drives your morals - other than the deterent of having to spend part of your time alive in jail? What prevents you from doing whatever it takes to get what you want when you want it other than the long arm of the law? Does right or wrong REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things? As others have noted, the Golden Rule works well. And not just in an abstract, sympathetic sense, although that is part of it. But equally important is an enlightened self-interest: if I indiscriminantly hurt others, people will eventually find out. People I may need the help of some day. Some psychopaths (e.g., Ty Cobb) manage to get away with it for a long time. But they don’t generally look like happy people – they seem to end up alone and hated. (It might also be worth noting that faith in God didn’t stop Cobb from being a psychopath – he was convinced that he’d be forgiven). > [@](#): > > 1. What makes your life truly meaningful? Career, money, romance or what? Where do you derive your self worth? A combination of work, play, learning, family, and romance. More specifically, it’s important for me to feel like I’m leaving something behind. Part of my work involves teaching, and that’s one of the best ways I’ve found to make a lasting contribution – the biggest influences on _my_ life have been teachers or mentors. > [@](#): > > 1. What is the meaning of your existence? Does your life - or anyones - really matter on this rock? Since I don’t believe in an afterlife, I believe that this rock is the _only_ place where my life can matter. ---
**Author:** ![tlk1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tlk1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tlk1)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/95 "2005-01-25T13:19:04Z")
Thanks for the lucid, cogent replies. Now let me tip my hand on why I wanted the know the answers: I suspected that actively deciding to be an atheist means that these questions to some degree have had to be answered, unlike an individual that never really considers and/or confronts the issue of God in thier life. Since I am not an atheist, I had to ask to get the real answer. Like I said before, forming an uninformed opinion is foolish AND stupid. Of course, it makes me think of other questions… ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/96 "2005-01-25T13:24:33Z")
> [@tlk1](#): > > Now let me tip my hand on why I wanted the know the answers: I suspected that actively deciding to be an atheist means that these questions to some degree have had to be answered, unlike an individual that never really considers and/or confronts the issue of God in thier life. Well I never really thought about it… I just never really beleived in God/gods. I was given no religious education or upbringing. Naturally being exposed to beleivers we tend to stop… think about it… and say “nah”… it just doesn’t add up. Eventually of course I thought things out rationally and I’m a firm “beleiver” that there is no God… not one I would like considering my diety at least. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/97 "2005-01-25T21:21:04Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > Indeed, I don’t think it too farfetched to say that most of us would consider someone who professed to believe in Zeus and/or Apollo either a lunatic or a joker. Would that still be true 2000 years ago when children learned about Jupiter and Apollo in schools, and when the Emperor believed in them? If a thousand years from now those who believed in Jesus would be either lunatics or jokers, would that change your answer? There was probably less evidence against belief in the Greek Roman gods at the time than there is evidence today against belief in our western gods (mostly around known inaccuracies in our holy books.) I, too, still don’t see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/98 "2005-01-30T10:20:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Would that still be true 2000 years ago when children learned about Jupiter and Apollo in schools, and when the Emperor believed in them? If a thousand years from now those who believed in Jesus would be either lunatics or jokers, would that change your answer? Maybe, but that’s completely hypothetical - we couldn’t possibly surmise right now if that will be the case or not. > [@Voyager](#): > > There was probably less evidence against belief in the Greek Roman gods at the time than there is evidence today against belief in our western gods (mostly around known inaccuracies in our holy books.) I, too, still don’t see the difference. I don’t buy into many of the “known inaccuracies in holy books” as evidence against God. They were, after all, written by men. Whether or not they were inspired or even dictated by God is something else, but they were written down, and subsequently translated (and possibly screwed up royally) by men. And men, despite the arrogance of many of them, aren’t perfect, and can (and do) make mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/99 "2005-01-30T11:03:17Z")
> [@tlk1](#): > > Now let me tip my hand on why I wanted the know the answers: I suspected that actively deciding to be an atheist means that these questions to some degree have had to be answered. Well, not really. What was the point again? ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483/100 "2005-01-30T11:07:22Z")
I skipped the entire thread. I think that’s fair, considering you weren’t asking me to ponder other’s responses to your questions. You were asking for mine. > [@tlk1](#): > > Questions for the athiests - > > 1. What drives your morals - other than the deterent of having to spend part of your time alive in jail? What prevents you from doing whatever it takes to get what you want when you want it other than the long arm of the law? Does right or wrong REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things? The Golden Rule and Karma. I don’t believe in _any_ hokey pokey, but I’m not a sociopath. I can _empathize_ with other people’s suffering, pain, and yes, even joy. Seeing someone hurt or die, hurts me, because I know their existence has been snuffed out forever and they will never again exist, except in the memories of those who knew them. It’s just fucking sad. I gain no joy in thinking they will be in “heaven”. They’re fucking DEAD. FOREVER. Just like I will be. I will cease to exist, and I’ll be worm food. Tha’ts fucking it. 1. What makes your life truly meaningful? Career, money, romance or what? Where do you derive your self worth? I enjoy making myself and others happy. If I can make a “difference”, then my life meant something. I’m no Einstein, but that’s basically the best I could ever hope for. 1. What is the meaning of your existence? Does your life - or anyones - really matter on this rock? Nope. Unless I’m like Einstein, which I’m not, I’ll be forgotten in less than 100 years, which kinda sucks. At least I’m not deluding myself into thinking I’ll see my relatives in heaven. It kinda makes me try harder because heaven, in my mind, is a cop out. FWIW. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-the-athiests/285483.md?page=6)