# Question for those who believe all religion should be abolished? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388 "2009-05-14T05:42:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/21 "2009-05-16T01:06:21Z")
There is no evidence that I know that _only_ military or religion can help incapable people. What about therapy? In _my_ personal experience religion only exasperates a generally incapable person’s problems. As in the case of the mentally ill, they will no longer be hearing plain old voices, they will be hearing angels and demons. Their religion will validate their delusions. If they tell a peer at the church, they may even be believed. In the case of the mentally inferior, they will be given many answers from religion, its just that most of them will be wrong. They’ll listen to their peers and then go out and vote, too dim to think for themselves. I know of no aethist that wants religion outright and totally abolished, but instead abolished in its influence in public decision making and dialouge. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/22 "2009-05-16T01:58:47Z")
I’m not aware of any organized movement that has this particular objective. I think it’s just a straw man discussed by the same people who talk about an “abortion industry” or “Satanist lobby” or somesuch. The most ambitious Atheists I’ve met just want religious influences purged from their own lives, and given no free rides by governmental authority. I’m open to seeing counter-evidence, though. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/23 "2009-05-16T02:50:33Z")
> [@Angelica\_Jolly](#): > > Hi, > > Have you ever met someone who is completely incapable of running their own lives? I have met many a person like this. > > Only religion or the military seems to help them. There are people for whom religion is a better option than to be allowed to make their own decisions. If religion were completely abolished, these poor lost souls would have no one to tell them what to think and how to behave. Although religion is not necessarily for people who are capable of independent, productive thought and action, it does have its place no? > > What say ye? I find it largely depressing that there are people who depend on religion to help them make daily, life decisions. They are the definition of hopeless. They can offer nothing but a hindrance in their society. You are describing people who are INCAPABLE of making decisions on their own. How capable are they of doing anything by themselves? That said, abolishing religion by law is ridiculous. It is wrong. I personally would love to see religion kept entirely at home (meaning no churches, synagogues, temples or mosques but replaced by schools and hospitals), but to what end? We are free to speak and believe in basically anything in the US. A change to that right, even if taking away religion is somehow good, would only lead to more suppression and and limits to rights we USED to have. I use reason as my argument against religion. I ask those who are vaguely familiar with their religion to learn it and make their own decision. Learn its history, its original purpose while also learning about the world, the galaxy, etc. See how your specified religion compares to fact. Decide its value on your own. The number one person in your life is yourself, certainly not someone else, especially if you’ve never really met them. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/24 "2009-05-16T02:53:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Pssst, hey man, you wanna get high ? I got good shit, man. I got Genesis, I got some Luke, I got half a page of the Tao Te Ching…I even got a Koran sura if you’re into the hard stuff, but that’ll cost you extra. Ha! 😃 Sure, you got the goods, but the real heavy shit can be found at a church called Westboro Baptist something… ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/25 "2009-05-16T04:25:17Z")
Abolish is harsh, but a slow death would be ok. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/26 "2009-05-16T04:47:42Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > I think it’s just a straw man discussed by the same people who talk about an “abortion industry” or “Satanist lobby” or somesuch. That was my suspicion as well, though the OP is a bit ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/27 "2009-05-16T06:19:25Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > That was my suspicion as well, though the OP is a bit ambiguous. It IS ambiguous… Where is this Jolly female angel? We haven’t heard since her OP. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/28 "2009-05-16T07:42:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** : I would prefer that humanity be genetically modified to eliminate whatever mental defects cause religion. I regard religion as a mental disorder, not as a rational choice. I think that human beings would probably be without the right hemispheres of their brains to accomplish what you describe entirely. There are things that are not based on anything rational or logical that are still good things, **Der Trihs**. I think that you will find that science favors using both sides. I am opposed to the kind of religious interference in your life and in government that you have described many times. But I am also opposed to your interference and the government’s interference in their lives unless _they_ are interfering. I am on your side on many issues more than you might think. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/29 "2009-05-16T07:55:23Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I think that human beings would probably be without the right hemispheres of their brains to accomplish what you describe entirely. There are things that are not based on anything rational or logical that are still good things, **Der Trihs**. I think that you will find that science favors using both sides. But religion is the enemy of rationality. It isn’t just “not based on anything rational or logical”; it is _ **ir** _rational and _ **il** _logical; it denies reality, and logic, and rationality. Any serious attempt to improve the human mind will threaten religion even if that’s not the intention, because religion is simply wrong. The result of humanity’s present defective, limited brains. The only way that human intelligence boosting and religion are compatible is if in the process the mind in question is deliberately programmed into a religious fanatic, incapable of changing it’s mind regardless of the facts. Which is one scenario I was referring to when I said that to survive religion would need to destroy sanity; religion depends on humanity being a fundamentally insane and stupid species. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/30 "2009-05-16T11:19:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But religion is the enemy of rationality. It isn’t just “not based on anything rational or logical”; it is _ **ir** _rational and _ **il** _logical; it denies reality, and logic, and rationality. > > Any serious attempt to improve the human mind will threaten religion even if that’s not the intention, because religion is simply wrong. The result of humanity’s present defective, limited brains. The only way that human intelligence boosting and religion are compatible is if in the process the mind in question is deliberately programmed into a religious fanatic, incapable of changing it’s mind regardless of the facts. Which is one scenario I was referring to when I said that to survive religion would need to destroy sanity; religion depends on humanity being a fundamentally insane and stupid species. While I primarily agree with most of what you say here, there are plenty of other things that we create that are also illogical and irrational that are almost entirely harmless. Surely you see the cultural value in artwork or music not directly tied to mundane concerns. Escapist fantasy, and surrealism or simply being strange because the perversity of it amuses you. After all, I can enjoy a monster movie and understand the separation of fantasy and reality. The problem with religion is that it supplants actual reality with it’s own made up version of things and markets it as absolute truth. The problem isn’t the irrationality of it, it is the aggressive denial of actual reality. It is mostly harmless to believe in a personal god that you keep to yourself; though I agree that doing so is nothing more than childish fantasy. It is when it starts to ooze out of your personal space and into everyone else’s that it becomes the plague that it is. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/31 "2009-05-16T11:57:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I would prefer that humanity be genetically modified to eliminate whatever mental defects cause religion. Anybody here who said the same about homosexuality or polyamory or non-religiosity would be rightly banned or hounded off the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/32 "2009-05-16T12:06:35Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Anybody here who said the same about homosexuality or polyamory or non-religiosity would be rightly banned or hounded off the SDMB. _"One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just isn’t the same… "_ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/33 "2009-05-16T12:20:26Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > The problem with religion is that it supplants actual reality with it’s own made up version of things and markets it as absolute truth. The problem isn’t the irrationality of it, it is the aggressive denial of actual reality. But that denial of reality, the substitution of faith for fact is what makes it religion. > [@FriarTed](#): > > Anybody here who said the same about homosexuality or polyamory or non-religiosity would be rightly banned or hounded off the SDMB. The first is biology, the second is a preference, and the third factually correct by all the evidence. None of those is anything like religion. And you’ve been hostile to the point of gloating sadism in your attitude towards atheists like myself, with your occasional speeches about how God will make us grovel before him and piss ourselves. Why haven’t YOU been “banned or hounded off the SDMB” ? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/34 "2009-05-16T12:23:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But that denial of reality, the substitution of faith for fact is what makes it religion. > > The first is biology, the second is a preference, and the third factually correct by all the evidence. None of those is anything like religion. > > And you’ve been hostile to the point of gloating sadism in your attitude towards atheists like myself, with your occasional speeches about how God will make us grovel before him and piss ourselves. Why haven’t YOU been “banned or hounded off the SDMB” ? Well, that’s a radical reinterpretation of the text. And as for hostility, pot meet kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/35 "2009-05-16T12:27:36Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Well, that’s a radical reinterpretation of the text. No, just pointing out the obvious. > [@FriarTed](#): > > And as for hostility, pot meet kettle. That’s evading the question; I pointed out that if you were right about the results of that hostility, you’d have been banned long ago. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/36 "2009-05-16T12:45:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, just pointing out the obvious. > > That’s evading the question; I pointed out that if you were right about the results of that hostility, you’d have been banned long ago. Yeah. OK. Oh- and when I was called on what I had said, I apologized for having indeed let my temper get the better of me. Might we ever see a DT-acknowledgment “Whew, I’m sorry. I crossed the line there!”? Finally, I love how you characterize a scenario which ends in your eternal reconciliation with God/Jesus as evidence of my “gloating sadism”. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/37 "2009-05-16T12:49:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The first is biology, the second is a preference, and the third factually correct by all the evidence. None of those is anything like religion. Your original quote- Originally Posted by Der Trihs I would prefer that humanity be genetically modified to eliminate whatever mental defects cause religion. Now, IF genetic modification would eliminate the mental defect causing religion, then religion ALSO is a matter of biology, and thus, just as protected as biologically-based homosexuality. I accept your apology! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/38 "2009-05-16T12:50:35Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Might we ever see a DT-acknowledgment “Whew, I’m sorry. I crossed the line there!”? When I feel I have, possibly. > [@FriarTed](#): > > Finally, I love how you characterize a scenario which ends in your eternal reconciliation with God/Jesus as evidence of my “gloating sadism”. Grovelling, peeing myself and being forced to become devoted to something I despise is hardly flowers and bunnies. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/39 "2009-05-16T12:52:10Z")
> [@Angelica\_Jolly](#): > > Have you ever met someone who is completely incapable of running their own lives? I have met many a person like this. > > Only religion or the military seems to help them. There are people for whom religion is a better option than to be allowed to make their own decisions. If religion were completely abolished, these poor lost souls would have no one to tell them what to think and how to behave. Although religion is not necessarily for people who are capable of independent, productive thought and action, it does have its place no? If they can’t make good decisions with _accurate_ information about their situation, how will providing them with inaccurate information help? Wouldn’t you be better off teaching them the useful bits, and drop the misinformation about gods and magic? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388/40 "2009-05-16T12:55:59Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Now, IF genetic modification would eliminate the mental defect causing religion, then religion ALSO is a matter of biology, and thus, just as protected as biologically-based homosexuality. Except that homosexuality isn’t a defect; it’s a built in preference. If homosexuality made people fall in love with people that didn’t exist, that would be a closer equivalent to religion. I call whatever mental qualities that cause religion a defect because religion is delusional, not just because I don’t like it; there’s lots of things I don’t like that aren’t defects. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-those-who-believe-all-religion-should-be-abolished/496388.md?page=3)