# Question from non-American: is baseball popular (or indeed, existent) in the South? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [August 26, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268 "2019-08-26T16:00:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/41 "2019-08-27T15:58:34Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > The ranks will be decreasing by one in 2020, as the New Orleans Baby Cakes will be relocating to Wichita, KS. Yeah, but you can add the Louisville (KY)[Bats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisville_Bats). ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/42 "2019-08-27T16:18:36Z")
Seems to me that rugby is more of a regional sport than others, being played in the northeast. Baseball is pretty universal. There may be pro hockey teams in the south, but as far as high school and college goes, it’s a wasteland. Even the west coast is pretty devoid of college hockey, Arizona State may join the Big Ten as a hockey-only school just as Notre Dame is now. (The Big Ten has a lacrosse-only school in Johns Hopkins). College baseball is bigger in the south than the north. Better weather during college baseball season, so much so that northern teams have to travel south and west during the early part of the season to play a steady diet of road games. Southern schools have a huge edge in recruiting and in getting more home games. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/43 "2019-08-27T17:58:07Z")
Auto racing (NASCAR) is definitely still much more popular in the Southeast than anywhere else in the country. They do some races in New England and on the West Coast, but the fanbase and interest are mostly in the South. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/44 "2019-08-27T18:23:00Z")
NC had around 40 minor league teams in the 40s. Even now there are around 10. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/45 "2019-08-27T18:27:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Seems to me that rugby is more of a regional sport than others, being played in the northeast. Baseball is pretty universal. There may be pro hockey teams in the south, but as far as high school and college goes, it’s a wasteland. Even the west coast is pretty devoid of college hockey, Arizona State may join the Big Ten as a hockey-only school just as Notre Dame is now. (The Big Ten has a lacrosse-only school in Johns Hopkins). > > College baseball is bigger in the south than the north. Better weather during college baseball season, so much so that northern teams have to travel south and west during the early part of the season to play a steady diet of road games. Southern schools have a huge edge in recruiting and in getting more home games. The rugby team at the University of California is a major participant in the sport. The club has 28 national titles, including twelve consecutive championships from 1991 to 2002, five more consecutive titles from 2004 to 2008, and back-to-back titles in 2010 to 2011 and 2016 to 2017. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/46 "2019-08-27T18:37:28Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Let’s not forget the minor leagues. In AAA (one level down from Major League Baseball) there are 10 southern teams: > > Gwinett Stripes - Lawrenceville, GA > Charlotte Knights - Charlotte, NC > Durham Bulls - Durham, SC > Norfolk Tides - Norfolk, VA > El Paso Chihuahuas - El Paso, TX > Round Rock Express - Round Rock, TX > San Antonio Missions - San Antonio, TX > New Orleans Baby Cakes - New Orleans, LA > Memphis Redbirds - Memphis, TN > Nashville Sounds - Nashville, TN > > I’m too lazy right now to see how many there are in AA, A, and Rookie leagues. Another nitpick - that’s Gwinnett _Stripers_. Lots of jokes in the Atlanta area about mispronunciations, when they changed their name. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/47 "2019-08-27T20:26:23Z")
While I get the general point about AAA, El Paso is decidedly not in The South. But I’d also say that the average trip to any one of those AAA games would definitely be cheaper and probably more fun than a Braves game. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/48 "2019-08-27T23:43:13Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The rugby team at the University of California is a major participant in the sport. The club has 28 national titles, including twelve consecutive championships from 1991 to 2002, five more consecutive titles from 2004 to 2008, and back-to-back titles in 2010 to 2011 and 2016 to 2017. Thanks for the info. The only times I’ve ever seen it were all northeast schools. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/49 "2019-08-28T00:28:22Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > While I get the general point about AAA, El Paso is decidedly not in The South. But I’d also say that the average trip to any one of those AAA games would definitely be cheaper and probably more fun than a Braves game. I think for the purpose of the OP, we can count El Paso, since Texas was in the Confederacy. And the Houston Astros and Texas Rangers in MLB have already been mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/50 "2019-08-28T16:15:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > He’s pulling your leg. Or he’s a much worse historian than I thought. Abner Doubleday had absolutely nothing to do with baseball in any way. [Albert Spaulding](https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Abner_Doubleday), a sports mogul, wanted a patriotic beginning to the sport and rigged a commission to “prove” that it was invented by Civil War hero Doubleday. Baseball had been around long before he was born and evolved as a sport all over the country. Both sides in the Civil War spent idle hours playing baseball. A large percentage of professional baseball players came from the South throughout its history, even though the teams were in the big northern cities. A much larger percentage would have if baseball had allowed “negroes” to play. The Negro Leagues included plenty of southerners, too. Indeed, the Negro Leagues were VERY southern in content. Almost all the greatest players were from the South; the only one I can think of offhand who wasn’t was Oscar Charleston, who was from Pennsylvania (well, and Martin Dihigo, who was from Cuba, which is certainly south but not The South.) ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/51 "2019-08-30T09:27:11Z")
Sorry about my couple of days’ absence; and thanks for the continuing assortment of information. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > OP, I read about a sport you play over there called Quidditch. You like riding brooms around and throwing Quaffles? I have a theory – which I gather is to some extent borne out by things J.K. Rowling has stated – that JKR is, like myself, the reverse of a sports fan; she tends to find wearisome, the sheer hard-to-ignore volume of those who love sports’ going-on about same. Her invention of the wizards’ game Quidditch, can be seen as gentle mockery of conventional sports and the way huge numbers of people are perceivedly obsessed with them. Quidditch is a patently insane sport which just plain doesn’t actually work; but which nevertheless has, in Wizarding-World terms, a very large number of impassioned devotees, many of whom have an encyclopedic knowledge of the game’s minutiae, and never shut up about same. > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Indeed, two of the greatest home run hitters in the history of the game were Southerners - Babe Ruth (from Maryland, culturally the South), and Henry Aaron, from Alabama. > > Incidentally, **Sangahyando** , the history of baseball owes quite a bit to one of your lot: an expat English sportswriter named [Henry Chadwick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Chadwick_(writer)). He started covering baseball for the _New York Times_, as an outgrowth of his coverage of cricket (which was a popular sport in the US in the mid-19th century). Got hooked by the game, and subsequently promoted and refined it - it was he who managed to change the rule so that a ball caught in the air was an out - previously, a ball caught on one bound also counted. He published the first baseball guide, and was the first to list runs, home runs, strikeouts and outs. He devised the box score, and is credited with creating the earned run average and hitting average. He is sometimes called “the Father of Baseball”. Arguable, but he had much more claim to the title than Abner Doubleday. Most interesting about Chadwick – a new figure to me – thank you. It’s always struck me that baseball resembles cricket, more than any other sport in the world of which I’m aware: “cross-fertilization” between the sports via Chadwick, which you describe, is of much interest. Cricket’s 19th-century popularity in the US, initially surprised me (we tend to think that it’s too crazy a game to appeal to anyone other than the English !); but there popped up in my memory, a passing reference in George MacDonald Fraser’s _Flashman and the Redskins_: Flashy mentions that one of the “supporting cast” in Custer’s disastrous 1876 campaign (Benteen?) was a cricket fan. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > Turtledove doesn’t attribute the absence of baseball to Doubleday’s absence in the Southern Victory books - in the book no one knows about alternate universes, so no one can be wondering about the effect of the death of a minor figure on a minor sport. Very true – that was just me wondering re Doubleday (assuming his actually playing his attributed role in “our time-line”), from my point of view outside the SV universe. (Memo to self – get out more :o?) > [@](#): > > Per this Turtledove fan site [Sports References in Turtledove's Work | Turtledove | Fandom](https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Abner_Doubleday) Doubleday is mentioned in a Turtledove story, but not in the Southern Victory series. Thanks re this – a Turtledove “short” that I hadn’t come across. (I gather that Harry is a keen in-real-life baseball fan.) Further “Turtledovery” – with assorted instances offered in this thread, of baseball luminaries who were from the South; I recalled that in the _Worldwar_ series: the captain of Yeager’s baseball team (whose name escapes me at present – he’s also an old soldier, who comes to fight from start to finish in the war against the invading Lizards) is from a Deep South state. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2019, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/52 "2019-08-30T11:47:34Z")
Yeah, Turtledove is s big baseball fan. One of his early stories "The Rosd not Taken features characters all named for a particular team’s lineup (I forget which team). ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2019, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/53 "2019-08-30T12:11:10Z")
I’ve read, and liked, _The Road Not Taken_; but being neither American nor a sports fan, I’ve been oblivious to the baseball connection ! ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2019, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/54 "2019-08-30T13:03:39Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > I’ve read, and liked, _The Road Not Taken_; but being neither American nor a sports fan, I’ve been oblivious to the baseball connection ! I didn’t notice either - but I remember someone in the Analog letter column commenting about it. Here’s an analysis someone wrote: [On "The Road Not Taken" Character Names | Turtledove | Fandom](https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/On_%22The_Road_Not_Taken%22_Character_Names) “The crew of the Ares III have a connection to the New York Giants” “The United States Army platoon that the POV Billy Cox served in has a connection to the Brooklyn Dodgers/Los Angeles Dodgers” “The two researchers also have a connection to the Brooklyn Dodgers” ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/55 "2019-08-30T14:11:21Z")
Thanks again. I take it that the alien invaders, the Roxolani, are not included – one assumes that they don’t have baseball on their home-world 😉 . Though I recall that in _Worldwar_, Harry has instances of “Lizard” aliens – POWs and / or voluntary dwellers in human territory – playing baseball, to which they seem naturally well-suited. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268/56 "2019-08-31T03:31:11Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > (snip) > > Most interesting about Chadwick – a new figure to me – thank you. It’s always struck me that baseball resembles cricket, more than any other sport in the world of which I’m aware: “cross-fertilization” between the sports via Chadwick, which you describe, is of much interest. Cricket’s 19th-century popularity in the US, initially surprised me (we tend to think that it’s too crazy a game to appeal to anyone other than the English !); but there popped up in my memory, a passing reference in George MacDonald Fraser’s _Flashman and the Redskins_: Flashy mentions that one of the “supporting cast” in Custer’s disastrous 1876 campaign (Benteen?) was a cricket fan. Yes. Hard to believe, but the first cricket international match was between the U.S. and Canada, in 1844. The first English eleven to make an international tour came to North America in 1859. Years ago, I worked with a man who had played high-level amateur (and possibly pro, if memory serves) cricket in Barbados. One night while cleaning up, he explained the game to me. I came away thinking that the only fundamental, important difference between baseball and cricket was which aspect of the game dominated: batting in cricket, pitching in baseball. Otherwise, the sports are essentially identical, in all but superficial ways. For example, like cricket fielders, baseball fielders are permitted to place themselves anywhere on the field they choose (with the exception of the pitcher and the catcher). A century and a half of experience has shown that the general placement of fielders - a man on each base, a shortstop between second and third, and an outfielder in each field - is the most effective defense, but there’s no rule saying the players must take those positions. And even in a game, you’ll see the infielders line up in different spots, depending on the batter. Cricket has spin bowlers, who rely on making the ball move in a deceptive manner, and fast bowlers, who overwhelm with speed; in baseball, this is the difference between “control” and “power” pitchers. In cricket, a ball hit over the boundary is an automatic six runs; in baseball, a ball hit over the fence is automatically one to four runs, depending on the number of batters on base. According to my friend, the two sports even have a similar pitching/bowling strategy; one ball aimed high and close to the batter/batsman, to shake him up, then the next lower and farther away (in baseball, called “high and tight, then low and away”.) As I said, the only fundamental difference I could see was that baseball is weighted to pitching, whereas cricket is weighted to batting.The fact that in cricket, a leg before wicket results in dismissal of the batsman, where the result of the baseball equivalent, a hit batsman, is a free base, I think demonstrates this difference. I suspect the dominance of pitching in baseball derives from the fact that a round bat hitting a round ball has a much smaller “sweet spot”, that will result in a hit, compared to a flat, rectangular bat that has three faces with which to hit the ball\*. Cue the argument about which is harder, hitting in cricket or hitting in baseball. TL;DR, after listening to my Barbadian friend’s explanation, I was able on a subsequent visit to New Zealand to watch and understand a match between the Black Hats and Pakistan, based both on his exegesis and my own knowledge of baseball. Of course, this was twenty or so years ago, and I’m sure I’ve misremembered or misunderstood things. This being the SDMB, a cricket or baseball expert will be along directly, to correct anything I’ve gotten wrong. > [@Sanghayando](#): > > Very true – that was just me wondering re Doubleday (assuming his actually playing his attributed role in “our time-line”), from my point of view outside the SV universe. (Memo to self – get out more :o?) Albert Spalding, the sporting goods merchant and former pitcher, who organized the National League and chaired a commission investigating the history of baseball, essentially made up the story of Abner Doubleday having invented the game. There’s no evidence that he had anything whatsoever to do with the foundation of the sport. \*Lest anyone think I’m biased, being an American, I’ll say that fielding is a lot harder in cricket, where players make acrobatic catches _without_ big leather gloves, which impresses me no end. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-from-non-american-is-baseball-popular-or-indeed-existent-in-the-south/839268.md?page=2)