# Question on the use of the word 'defray" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983 "2021-07-08T14:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/1 "2021-07-08T14:02:21Z")
I have not seen any definition that fits the usage in the following: " While scholarly works suggest this may have potential to defray trust and undermine perceptions of reliability among potential supporters or partners…" " It is meant to defray trust again in all of the forces in society that are trying to regulate Donald Trump." Is the word defray being misapplied in the above? If it is correct what does defray mean in the above usage? It seems like the word ‘defray’ as used above means to undermine, but I could not find that definition. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/2 "2021-07-08T15:20:48Z")
> [@Octagon](#): > > Is the word defray being misapplied in the above? I think so, yes. I’ve only ever seen/heard “defray” used in connection with money; and the online dictionaries I’ve checked agree with this. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/3 "2021-07-08T15:29:11Z")
> [@Octagon](#): > > Is the word defray being misapplied Inconceivable! ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/4 "2021-07-08T15:31:05Z")
Sounds like they’re confusing it with “fray,” as in “(figuratively) wear down by rubbing.” For the record, “fray” and “defray” have separate origins: > **[fray | Etymology, origin and meaning of fray by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/fray#etymonline_v_11887)** > > FRAY Meaning: "feeling of alarm," shortening of affray (q.v.; see also afraid). Meaning "a brawl, a fight" is from… See origin and meaning of fray. > **[defray | Etymology, origin and meaning of defray by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/defray#etymonline_v_922)** > > DEFRAY Meaning: "make compensation for, spend, pay for" (a sense now archaic); 1570s, "satisfy by payment," from Old… See origin and meaning of defray. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/5 "2021-07-08T15:45:14Z")
_Impair_ would have been a better word ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/6 "2021-07-08T20:34:25Z")
Yep, looks like a maloprop to me. The mendicants probably couldn’t tell a fray from mulch. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/7 "2021-07-08T23:57:29Z")
It is a rather curious error. Defray is almost always used in a sense of reducing, but not eliminating some costs. “The bake sale helped defray the costs of the class trip” or the like. Otherwise you would say “covered” or “paid for.” You would also never use defray as a general synonym for “pay,” such as “I defrayed my share of the bill at the restaurant.” It’s always some indirect method. I can see how someone might think that reduction is the meaning, rather than paying. I’m not sure “paying” is really a correct definition, either. “We negotiated a student discount with the travel company, which helped defray the costs of the class trip” is sensible, I think. But no one is making a _payment_ there. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/8 "2021-07-09T01:34:22Z")
Original meaning was to spend or pay in any sense. It pretty soon acquired the narrower meaning of to pay a bill, meet an outstanding charge or expense, and the wider sense fell out of use. It also acquired a secondary sense of paying someone else’s bill; if I defray John, it means I am meeting an expense incurred by John. Negotiating a discount is not defraying an expense; it’s avoiding the expense arising in the first place, so you don’t have to defray it. This might be a developing sense of the word but I’ve not come across it before. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/9 "2021-07-09T01:49:20Z")
I think _diminish_ might have worked. But it is immediately obvious what the meaning is and how it got there: defray cost “reduce” cost “reduce” trust So I can literally see this becoming a new accepted usage ~ ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/10 "2021-07-09T01:51:54Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > This might be a developing sense of the word but I’ve not come across it before. Some example sentences [from here](https://sentence.yourdictionary.com/defray): > Buying bulk will help you defray costs significantly by driving the cost down to what conventional flour usually costs. Buying in bulk is just a discount, so no payment. > Many energy companies are now offering lease programs to defray the start-up costs and bill you on a monthly basis with a cost similar to your current power bills. Renting something instead of buying it is also not a payment. > This does not quite defray the interest on the cost of their construction and equipment, inasmuch as it barely comes to 31% thereon, but rates and fares are deliberately kept low to encourage settlement and communication. Keeping rates and fares low in the first place is also not a payment. > Discussing the rules and positive aspects of social networking with your friends and family can also defray negative repercussions. Much like the OP’s example, this is completely unrelated to money. I’m not sure where these examples came from originally. Some might be considered an error (especially the last). But I’m sure I’ve seen fairly common usage of defray as a general reduction of costs, not necessarily by actual payment. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/11 "2021-07-09T02:31:51Z")
Well, fair enough; that is a developing sense of the word, so. It may be a sense that has developed, or developed further, in American English than in other varieties of English. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/12 "2021-07-09T04:31:21Z")
I am pretty curious if there’s a trans-Atlantic or other difference. As I said, the “discount” version I’ve seen before. Though the third example above doesn’t sound very American to me with its use of “thereon” (pretty rare in my experience). Could be Indian English, for example. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/13 "2021-07-09T06:05:16Z")
I don’t think there is a trans-Atlantic difference. I’ve only ever heard it as relating to costs or expenses. The last example you quote, “defray negative repercussions” may have been used metaphorically, as though the repercussions were costs. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/14 "2021-07-09T06:06:22Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I am pretty curious if there’s a trans-Atlantic or other difference. As I said, the “discount” version I’ve seen before. Though the third example above doesn’t sound very American to me with its use of “thereon” (pretty rare in my experience). Could be Indian English, for example. I’m not convinced that the third example is in fact an instance of the “discount” sense of the word. We’re told that “this” does not defray the cost of paying interest, but we have no idea what “this” refers to. I see no reason to assume that’s its a discount. In fact, I think it isn’t. I think the passage refers to something like a government railway, and the sense is something like: “[Revenue from fares] does not quite defray the interest on the cost of [building and equipping the railway], inasmuch as it barely comes to 31% [of that cost], but [this is because] rates and fares are deliberately kept low to encourage [use of the railway so as to promote] settlement and communication.” So, no discount. Fare revenue is not sufficient to defray - i.e. pay - the railway company’s interest bill. It’s the payment of bills sense. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/15 "2021-07-09T07:27:12Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > In fact, I think it isn’t. Yes, you’re right. There’s some ambiguity in the “this,” but my initial reading didn’t actually make sense. Still, there are other examples. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I’ve only ever heard it as relating to costs or expenses. Part of the question though is whether it must strictly refer to a payment, or if it can relate to a discount or other means of reducing some cost that doesn’t involve a money transfer. I agree that outside of the examples in this thread, it always refers to a monetary cost of some kind. But in the usage I’m familiar with it could include discounts. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The last example you quote, “defray negative repercussions” may have been used metaphorically, as though the repercussions were costs. Agreed, but metaphorical use is one of the ways that meanings evolve. So is this kind of usage common enough that we can treat it as a new meaning, or are these just isolated cases? That one and the OP’s are a bit different, though. As you mention, “negative repercussions” can be seen as a cost that is being reduced. In the OP’s example, “trust” is (presumably) not a cost, but rather a benefit that’s being reduced. If it’s not simply an error, we might see the evolution of meaning as: payment of expense =\> reduction of expense =\> reduction of metaphorical cost =\> reduction of any abstract thing. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/16 "2021-07-09T07:38:17Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Part of the question though is whether it must strictly refer to a payment, or if it can relate to a discount or other means of reducing some cost that doesn’t involve a money transfer. I agree that outside of the examples in this thread, it always refers to a monetary cost of some kind. But in the usage I’m familiar with it could include discounts. I would say it can include discounts, or anything that reduces costs in any way. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > If it’s not simply an error, we might see the evolution of meaning as: payment of expense =\> reduction of expense =\> reduction of metaphorical cost =\> reduction of any abstract thing. I believe the OP quote is simply an error. None of the dictionary definitions I’ve seen give any meaning unrelated to financial costs. ---
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/17 "2021-07-09T07:42:53Z")
These quotation were copied directly from Google. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/18 "2021-07-09T07:44:20Z")
Surely you meant to say unpossible? I think you’re right about it being a malapropism. They may have been intending to say ‘fray’ in the sense of corroding or gradually diminishing, which serves the quoted context but grabbed ‘defray’ as the more common word rattling in their brains. As others have pointed out there are better synonyms they could have used. They were right on the wrong tact. ---
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/19 "2021-07-09T07:48:33Z")
I first heard this usage in an interview (I believe it was with Tony Schwartz, author of ‘The Art of the Deal’). I listened to it several time to make sure I heard it correctly. That’s when I looked for other examples and found them on Google. If I can find the clip I’ll post it. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983/20 "2021-07-09T08:04:48Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Surely you meant to say unpossible? It’s a reference to _The Princess Bride_. > Vizzini: Inconceivable! > Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-on-the-use-of-the-word-defray/945983.md?page=2)