# Question re: "Fight Science" and Western swordsmanship **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 31, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179 "2006-12-31T02:55:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/21 "2007-01-01T02:44:00Z")
[QUOTE=Blake] Yeah, there are a number of broad generalisations in there, hardly surprising when summing up 200 years of development in two paragraphs. But the take home message is that, Rome aside, military swords have almost all been primarily slashing weapons, and very few people ever appear to have been stabbed with a military sword. If a soldier wanted to stab someone he used a spear. [/QUOTE] Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Titus Manlius Torquatus, first appearing in Livy’s Ab Urbe Condita, book 7, paragraphs 9 and 10. Here’s a [link](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19725/19725-h/19725-h.htm#g9) via Project Gutenberg to an English translation. And here’s the relevant bit, from paragraph 10: > [@](#): > > When they took their stand between the two armies, the minds of so many individuals around them suspended between hope and fear, the Gaul, like a huge mass threatening to fall on that which was beneath it, stretching forward his shield with his left hand, discharged an ineffectual cut of his sword with a great noise on the armour of his foe as he advanced towards him. The Roman, raising the point of his sword, after he had pushed aside the lower part of the enemy’s shield with his own, and closing on him so as to be exempt from the danger of a wound, insinuated himself with his entire body between the body and arms of the foe, with one and immediately with another thrust pierced his belly and groin, and stretched his enemy now prostrate over a vast extent of ground. Now, I realize you said Rome aside, but since we’re talking about single combat between Romans and other folks, it seems a bit silly to exclude the Romans. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/22 "2007-01-01T02:48:28Z")
I also wanted to recommend the movie _The Duellists_. Harvey Keitel and Keith Carradine might not be the first two actors you’d think of to portray French officers under Napoleon, but they both were convincing. As the title implies, they fight not just one but numerous duels, using a variety of weaponry including smallswords and military sabers, with the appropriate techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/23 "2007-01-01T02:50:13Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] The HBO series “Rome” did a good job in the first episode of showing a Roman shield wall, with the men in front rotating to the back at regular intervals; you can see how that kind of organization could hold out against a larger force of less-disciplined Goths. [/QUOTE] Goths? I meant Gauls. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/24 "2007-01-01T02:59:47Z")
One of the reasons I particularly wanted **Maeglin** to participate is that he once told me a story about the master-at-arms (or whatever) from a European military ship taking on a samurai or other swordmaster in an exhibition-type matchup sometime early in the relationship between Europe/Japan. From what I understand, it escalated quickly from an exhibition match to a full-on deathmatch, and the European, who was a master with the shortsword (or smallsword. I don’t remember which, or even if there’s a difference,) ended up carving the samurai into little pieces. This was apparently a serious blow to the honor of the household, and set back relations greatly. Anybody have any other information on this anecdote? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/25 "2007-01-01T03:24:53Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] One of the reasons I particularly wanted **Maeglin** to participate is that he once told me a story about the master-at-arms (or whatever) from a European military ship taking on a samurai or other swordmaster in an exhibition-type matchup sometime early in the relationship between Europe/Japan. From what I understand, it escalated quickly from an exhibition match to a full-on deathmatch, and the European, who was a master with the shortsword (or smallsword. I don’t remember which, or even if there’s a difference,) ended up carving the samurai into little pieces. This was apparently a serious blow to the honor of the household, and set back relations greatly. Anybody have any other information on this anecdote? [/QUOTE] Is [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3729885&postcount=72) the **Maeglin** post you were thinking of (closest thing I could find on the SDMB) or was it an offboard comment? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/26 "2007-01-01T04:49:43Z")
Huh. It was an offboard comment, and this may be a different incident. I _think_ I distinctly remember it being in Japan at the dawn of the age of European trade. I could be very wrong, though. Thanks for the legwork. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/27 "2007-01-01T11:38:07Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] [tinyjack] You don’t happen to have a link to some online images of these, do you? The article I read was a couple years ago and I think that might have been what i was looking at. [/QUOTE] The [Wikipedia Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.33) has a couple of illos, and if you follow the links you’ll find more comprehensive treatments, including videos. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/28 "2007-01-01T16:47:29Z")
[QUOTE=Blake] But the take home message is that, Rome aside, military swords have almost all been primarily slashing weapons, and very few people ever appear to have been stabbed with a military sword. If a soldier wanted to stab someone he used a spear. [/QUOTE] Yes and no. As time went on there was an increasing trend to more rigid constructions that emphasized the thrust as a means of penetrating improving ( or just increasingly common ) armor. A Viking era sword was almost pure cleaver, this one being a particularly extreme take on the idea: [http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-viking-berserkr.htm](http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-viking-berserkr.htm) As opposed to _some_ late-model war swords, that were still capable of slashing but were skewed far more to the other extreme, as with this model ( not yet prototyped ): [http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-danish-2-hander.htm](http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-danish-2-hander.htm) Still, your point still stands that modern dueling, with the emphasis on the thrust being king, is descended from civilian dueling, rather than actual battlefield terchnique. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/29 "2007-01-01T21:05:05Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Hah! I meant even with a 1000 years more time to develope weapon and techniques, still would have been punked by the Romans. :smack: [/QUOTE] And here I thought it was a clever reference to _Highlander_, with its …interesting…take on katana development. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179/30 "2007-01-08T21:48:11Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Huh. It was an offboard comment, and this may be a different incident. I _think_ I distinctly remember it being in Japan at the dawn of the age of European trade. I could be very wrong, though. Thanks for the legwork. [/QUOTE] Sorry I missed the party, old buddy. If I referred offboard to anything other than the 1911 Castello duel, I must have been smoking rock. I think I was wrong in the linked post: the engagement was fenced in the Bahamas, not Havana. Incidentally, in the dawn of European/Japanese trade relations, there was no school of classical Italian sabre. The art of Japanese swordplay was also in its nascent stages of systematization and codification as well. That said, I have never seen the TV show you reference, so I cannot comment in any informed way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-fight-science-and-western-swordsmanship/386179.md?page=1)