# Question RE: USSR Republics **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 20, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257 "2013-04-20T21:04:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/1 "2013-04-20T21:04:23Z")
I recall from my school days reading in the USSR, the republics which made it up were designed so that they had to border, either another independent nation or the sea. I am referring to the SSRs that are now independent, not the internal divisions of each SSR. In theory each republic had a large degree of autonomy, so it would make sense, and if you count the Caspian Sea as a “sea” it does work out. But I can’t find that “fact” online anywhere. Was this so? Or am I remembering wrong? Or was the information incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/2 "2013-04-20T23:44:57Z")
First time I’ve ever heard this. As far as I can find there was no rule like this. The Soviet Socialist Republics were established mostly on the basis of where various recognized ethnic groups lived so it’s apparently just a coincidence that they all border a sea or independent nation. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/3 "2013-04-21T00:47:32Z")
It does not seem particularly unlikely that it would have come out this way by chance. Although the USSR was very large, most of the constituent republics were too, and it had a long coastline, long borders, and two internal seas. I doubt that it was a “rule”. Why would it be? ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/4 "2013-04-21T02:32:45Z")
“It used to be said by Soviet authorities that a union republic possessed three distinguishing characteristics: it is not surrounded on all sides by other union republics; the nationality for whom the republic is named constitutes a “compact” majority” of the republic’s population; and it has a population of at least one million people. These characteristics would be necessary, it was suggested, should the republic choose to secede from the USSR. In recent years, however, Soviet sources have stopped mentioning these three ‘objective characteristics,’ perhaps because the Kazakh and Kirghiz peoples no longer constitute a majority of the populations of ‘their’ republics." - Barry, D. and Barner-Berry, C. (1991) Contemporary Soviet Politics, 4th Edition, page 112. Apparently this “rule” did exist, though it seems to never have been formally adopted. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/5 "2013-04-21T08:57:50Z")
The original rule was that a nation was defined as “a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological makeup manifested in a common culture” (_Marxism and the National Question_ by Joseph Stalin). This is obviously a subjective standard but it does show there was no official mention of sea access or international borders. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/6 "2013-04-21T11:03:50Z")
The rule **kurtisoc** describes sounds like an ad hoc one composed for the purpose of _denying_ status to ethnicities who would otherwise qualify on the terms **Nemo** mentions. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/7 "2013-04-21T11:08:06Z")
The original claim is demonstrably false. Because Uzbekistan. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/8 "2013-04-21T11:28:56Z")
Has Uzbekistan not always bordered Afghanistan? ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/9 "2013-04-21T15:37:49Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The original claim is demonstrably false. Because Uzbekistan. Yeah, can you explain a little further? Tripler I’ve been to two of the three, but don’t get what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/10 "2013-04-21T15:43:21Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The original claim is demonstrably false. Because Uzbekistan. [Uzbekistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbekistan) is not the same as the [Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbek_Soviet_Socialist_Republic). ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/11 "2013-04-21T15:52:57Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > [Uzbekistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbekistan) is not the same as the [Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbek_Soviet_Socialist_Republic). And either way, it borders on Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/12 "2013-04-21T16:28:17Z")
From the quotes, it seems to have been a _political_ rule-of-thumb for discussing who was or wasn’t to be constituted as a Union Republic and how would the borders be designed, as opposed to an official policy or legal requirement adopted by either party or government. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/13 "2013-04-21T19:47:22Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The rule **kurtisoc** describes sounds like an ad hoc one composed for the purpose of _denying_ status to ethnicities who would otherwise qualify on the terms **Nemo** mentions. That raises a good point. The Soviet government was under pressure by various ethnic groups to upgrade their native region to SSR status. It would have been convenient for Moscow to be able to say that there was a rule requiring access to an international border or a sea. That fact that the Soviets didn’t use this argument is strong evidence that no such rule existed. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/14 "2013-04-23T17:27:36Z")
Do we really know what reasons they gave? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/15 "2013-04-23T19:42:12Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The original claim is demonstrably false. Because Uzbekistan. But, what about Ubeki-beki-beki-beki-stan-stan? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/16 "2013-04-23T19:58:31Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > "It used to be said by Soviet authorities that a union republic possessed three distinguishing characteristics: . . . > Apparently this “rule” did exist, though it seems to never have been formally adopted. While he quoted a source that repeated this “rule,” the source (Barry and Barner-Berry) worded it very vaguely. Could it be that they were just repeating an uncorroborated factoid that they had heard? The point might be true, but this falls pretty short of confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/17 "2013-04-23T20:52:57Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > "It used to be said by Soviet authorities that a union republic possessed three distinguishing characteristics: it is not surrounded on all sides by other union republics . . . But, the Russian SFSR was. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/18 "2013-04-23T21:09:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the Russian SFSR was. Eh? Russia has oodles of northern seacoast. ---
**Author:** ![President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/President_Johnny_Gentle)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/19 "2013-04-23T21:15:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the Russian SFSR was. The RSFSR bordered the ocean, Finland, Norway, Poland, Mongolia, China, and North Korea ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-re-ussr-republics/656257/20 "2013-04-24T06:49:45Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > And either way, it borders on Afghanistan. Yeah, I goofed. I was thinking in terms of it being one of the two doubly landlocked nations in the world (the other being Liechtenstein), and overlooked the border with Afghanistan, which I already knew about perfectly well, so my momentary blanking out on that is very unfortunate.