# Question regarding English not long after the Norman Conquest **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 13, 2014, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692 "2014-06-13T10:33:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/41 "2014-06-14T20:07:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > William’s third son, Henry, was literate, to the point that his nickname was “Beauclerc”. Yeah, but one has to be wary of that one. Unlike the his brothers’ nicknames, his wasn’t contemporary ( it dates to the 14th century ) and was based on a certain amount of propaganda. At one time it was claimed he translated Aesop’s Fables from Greek :D. In point of fact it seems he was probably somewhat literate in Latin but anything beyond that has to be considered highly uncertain. His contemporary William of Malmesbury showers him with hagiographic praise, comparing him to a philosopher king out of Plato’s Republic. Then grudgingly admits Henry read openly “only occasionally” and displayed his education “sparingly” ;). Which probably means he read haltingly or was uninterested in literature and wasn’t as scholarly as rumored. Still he probably _did_ have some education, which likely puts him one up on his dad, who apparently wasn’t literate at all. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/42 "2014-06-15T06:35:52Z")
Interesting point md2000. I was just wondering whether alternative spellings or lack of consistency in spelling words could account for the fact that (much later of course) writers like Shakespeare could coin so many original words. How many of those words were deliberately coined /created and how many were the result of misspellings? davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/43 "2014-06-15T07:54:51Z")
The words coined by Shakespeare had nothing to do with misspellings: > **[Words Shakespeare Invented](http://www.shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html)** > > The following is a list of some of the words Shakespeare coined and where they can be found, from Shakespeare Online. [http://www.pathguy.com/shakeswo.htm](http://www.pathguy.com/shakeswo.htm) > **[Words Shakespeare Invented](https://nosweatshakespeare.com/resources/words-shakespeare-invented/)** > > Want to know all about the words Shakespeare invented? We've got you covered with Shakespeare words. In all of his works - the plays, the sonnets and the poems > **[Shakespeare's influence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare's_influence)** > > Shakespeare's influence extends from theater and literatures to present-day movies, Western philosophy, and the English language itself. William Shakespeare is widely regarded as the greatest writer in the history of the English language, and the world's pre-eminent dramatist. He transformed European theatre by expanding expectations about what could be accomplished through innovation in characterization, plot, language and genre. Shakespeare's writings have also impacted man Early Modern Engli... For what it’s worth, I suspect that saying that Shakespeare invented all these words and phrases isn’t really accurate. What is meant is that the first appearance of these words in writing was in Shakespeare’s works. I suspect that while Shakespeare invented some of these words and phrases, he also heard other people use some of them and included them in his works. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/44 "2014-06-15T08:06:33Z")
Incidentally, in any edition of Shakespeare that you’re likely to read today, the spelling of words and the punctuation has been modernized. The spelling and the punctuation was noticeably different in the early editions and wasn’t very consistent. No scholar would refer to a misspelling of an already existing word as a new word. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/45 "2014-06-15T08:31:44Z")
Of course Dr Johnson’s dictionary was 100 years or so after Shakespeare. Words, including names were spelled any way the author chose, and abbreviations were common. Shakespeare himself is known to have half a dozen different signatures: Willm Shakp; William Shaksper; Wm Shakspe; William Shakspere; Willm Shakspere; By me William Shakspeare. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/46 "2014-06-15T08:40:19Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I have a book of collected letters of Lord Lisle. He was arrested and his correspondence collected by Henry VIII since he was a Plantagenet and Henry was justifiably paranoid. Even almost 500 years post-Norman, consistent spelling is optional - varies from Lisle to Lyall to Lille to almost any conceivable spelling or various vocalizations. Daniel likewise varies from Danyall to Dannil to Danyel to Daniel. Even the same correspondents spelled things differently from letter to letter. Add to that regional accents and variations on pronunciation (i.e. between “V”, “B”, “W”, etc.) Still happening in the 21st century to anybody who has an unusual name, and even to people who don’t, but who correspond with bad spellers. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/47 "2014-06-15T08:45:31Z")
Shakespeare “inventing” words due to misspelling? Here’s a link to one such possible case. The word “scamels” from The Tempest. It’s useage though did not in fact take off. [http://www.drmetablog.com/2010/09/scamels-from-the-rocke.html](http://www.drmetablog.com/2010/09/scamels-from-the-rocke.html) There is also manuscript of a Play called Sir Thomas More, a part of it suspected of being in Shakespeare’s own hand. It’s difficult to prove for certain.What is interesting is that its author uses the word “sherrif” six times in only a few pages. He spells it six different ways - sherriv,sherif, cheriv etc ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/48 "2014-06-15T10:08:17Z")
Thanks Wendell Wagner. I think crediting Shakespeare with 3,200 is nonsense. Recent scholarship seems to suggest he probably coined no more than 1,700 words (and even that figure may be too high) since many of the words he used were already in circulation before he used them. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/49 "2014-06-15T13:31:28Z")
You have to separate the notion of a word from its written representation. Changing a spelling doesn’t create a new word and nobody counted Shakespeare’s words according to spelling. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/50 "2014-06-15T14:08:30Z")
Good point Acsenray. Thank you. Thank you all. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/51 "2014-06-15T14:14:52Z")
I just read a review of _Authorisms: Words Wrought by Writers_ by Paul Dickson. It’s about the words that were created or first appeared in the works of important writers. It includes a section on Shakespeare’s creations. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/52 "2014-06-15T17:55:16Z")
Thank you wendell Wagner. I’ll have a look at it. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/53 "2014-06-16T05:20:49Z")
IIRC one actual phrase is “all that glisters is not gold”. That Shakespeare-ism(?) has been misquoted as “glistens”. We had fun in grade 10 with _“aroint thee witch, the rump-fed runion cried!”_ What exactly is rump-feeding? OTOH, Shakespeare was quite up to date. I believe it was Marc Anthony (or was it Brutus) who said “I speak right on!” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/54 "2014-06-16T05:38:48Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Incidentally, in any edition of Shakespeare that you’re likely to read today, the spelling of words and the punctuation has been modernized. The spelling and the punctuation was noticeably different in the early editions and wasn’t very consistent. No scholar would refer to a misspelling of an already existing word as a new word. The notion that there’s one “correct” spelling for a word, and all the others are “incorrect” is I think a fairly recent one. Maybe nineteenth century? Up to that point, as long as what you wrote was intelligible, unambiguous in context and didn’t cause the reader to stumble, I’d say one spelling was pretty much as acceptable as another. > [@Nava](#): > > Still happening in the 21st century to anybody who has an unusual name, and even to people who don’t, but who correspond with bad spellers. My own surname is one of those which of which several spellings are found. At one stage, when people asked me how to spell it I would reply that I really didn’t mind; I would answer to it no matter how it was spelt. For some reason people found that hard to accept, and eventually I had to give up the attempt to have no standard spelling for my own name. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/55 "2014-06-16T17:37:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t think the concept of a “real name” meaning a particular firm, spelling, and pronunciation was all that solid back then. In most writing they would likely use a Latinized form, like “Vilhelmus,” even for a Germanic name like “William.” FWIW, the [Old Norman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norman) [form of the name is “Williame.”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_(name)#Etymology) The Normans originally immigrated to France from either Denmark or Norway. In Danish, the name is Vilhelm; in Norwegian, Vilhelm or Wilhelm; in Icelandic and Faeroese, Vilhjálmur. The Old Norse form of the name must have been something like Vilhjálmur. The origin of the name is not Norse, though, but Old High German: Willahelm, from Proto-Germanic \*_wiljô_ and \*_helmaz_. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692/56 "2014-06-16T23:51:55Z")
Thank you Johanna. davidmich [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-english-not-long-after-the-norman-conquest/690692.md?page=2)