# Question regarding Europeans "secretly" fishing in Atlantic waters close to North America pre-1492 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 2, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661 "2016-05-02T02:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/1 "2016-05-02T02:35:45Z")
Hi, Now and again I come across claims that the North American continent was no secret to French fishermen, who apparently fished in waters close to North America prior to Columbus’s voyage in 1492. Is there any substance to these claims? I look forward to your feedback. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/2 "2016-05-02T02:42:24Z")
[http://www.doucetfamily.org/heritage/Fishermen.htm](http://www.doucetfamily.org/heritage/Fishermen.htm) Modern historians have pretty well shot down the idea that Frenchman were the first white men to set foot in America, and that one of them led the way for Christopher Columbus. But it could have happened. According to the discredited story, a French navigator from Dieppe named Cousin was sailing off the coast of Africa in 1488, four years before Columbus’ voyage, and was forced westward by winds and tides until he reached an unknown shore. On board the ship was a mutinous seaman named Pinzon who, after the voyage, was thrown out of the French Navy. Pinzon went to Spain, met Columbus, told him of the New World, and sailed with him in 1492. There is not much evidence to make historians think the story is true, but who knows? There are a handful of proven instances of ships being blown far to the west and unto strange shores. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/3 "2016-05-02T03:04:57Z")
You have your answer. It could have happened. It’s not beyond reason that a ship went there and back. There is no solid evidence to support that claim, though. Anything more is rumor and speculation. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/4 "2016-05-02T03:33:10Z")
there’s a lot of evidence that Vikings were there pre-1492. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/5 "2016-05-02T04:10:09Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > there’s a lot of evidence that Vikings were there pre-1492. However, even the Greenland colony had died out by the mid-1400s so they wouldn’t have been available to pass that knowledge on to Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/6 "2016-05-02T04:14:26Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > there’s a lot of evidence that Vikings were there pre-1492. Yes that brings me to the question of how far south of L’Anse à Meadows “Vinland” extended and whether the debate over the etymology has been laid to rest : The consensus seems to be that “Vin” should be translated as “meadow”, not “wine”. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/7 "2016-05-02T04:16:18Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Yes that brings me to the question of how far south of L’Anse à Meadows “Vinland” extended and whether the debate over the etymology has been laid to rest : The consensus seems to be that “Vin” should be translated as “meadow”, not “wine”. sorry L’Anse aux Meadows ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/8 "2016-05-02T04:37:22Z")
Well, there is another story that Columbus visited the Irish port of Galway at least once, in 1477, and this is thought to have been on a voyage to the Faroe Islands or to Iceland. It’s not impossible that he heard something about lands to the west from sources in these places. On the other hand, there’s no evidence that he did. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/9 "2016-05-02T05:35:11Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > sorry L’Anse aux Meadows Thanks UDS. I had read that too. On further reading into the etymology of “Vinland” it seems clear that Vinland refers to 'land of wine" after all. Thank you all. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/10 "2016-05-02T08:41:08Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > There are a handful of proven instances of ships being blown far to the west and unto strange shores. Well, that’s one thing, but the OP is asking about Europeans fishing there, which implies regularly going back and forth. One would think that if they regularly were close to North America at least one or two would have go on land to explore just out of curiosity. Also: “secretly”? How would you keep that a secretly, and why? ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/11 "2016-05-02T09:20:25Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Well, that’s one thing, but the OP is asking about Europeans fishing there, which implies regularly going back and forth. One would think that if they regularly were close to North America at least one or two would have go on land to explore just out of curiosity. Also: “secretly”? How would you keep that a secretly, and why? I don’t see where he mentions that they did it secretly, only that the North American continent was no secret to French fishermen. The question I have is: what would they have fished for in those waters that they could not find closer to home? It’s not that overfishing was a issue back then, was it? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/12 "2016-05-02T09:31:59Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > [Account Suspended](http://www.doucetfamily.org/heritage/Fishermen.htm) > Modern historians have pretty well shot down the idea that Frenchman were the first white men to set foot in America, and that one of them led the way for Christopher Columbus. But it could have happened. > > According to the discredited story, a French navigator from Dieppe named Cousin was sailing off the coast of Africa in 1488, four years before Columbus’ voyage, and was forced westward by winds and tides until he reached an unknown shore. On board the ship was a mutinous seaman named Pinzon who, after the voyage, was thrown out of the French Navy. Pinzon went to Spain, met Columbus, told him of the New World, and sailed with him in 1492. > > . I don’t think the OP is refering to this story but rather to the theory that the waters off North America were regularly visited by Basque fishers before 1492. > [@guizot](#): > > Well, that’s one thing, but the OP is asking about Europeans fishing there, which implies regularly going back and forth. One would think that if they regularly were close to North America at least one or two would have go on land to explore just out of curiosity. Also: “secretly”? How would you keep that a secretly, and why? They wouldn’t necessarily go on land. After all they were fishers and could have stayed in relatively high seas. I doubt they would explore “out of curiosity”. Maybe send some people on the coast of Newfoundland or whatever to bring back water or something, which wouldn’t leave any trace. As for the secrecy : to prevent other fishers from other areas from exploiting a presumably rich ressource. Makes complete sense to me. I don’t know at all on what exactly is based this theory, though. Oral tradition? Ambiguous written documents? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/13 "2016-05-02T09:51:04Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t know at all on what exactly is based this theory, though. Oral tradition? Ambiguous written documents? After a quick google search, it seems that the idea is based on the fact that Basque fishing boats were already present in large numbers off the Canadian coast by the time the first explorers were still trying to recognize the coast. Cartier spotted many of them in 1534. So, the idea seems to be that either they already knew about the fish banks before the first explorations of Northern America or that they reacted extremely quickly to the news of the existence of waters rich in fish after, say, Cabot expedition, creating a kind of “cod rush”. In itself, lowly fishermen venturing in these unknown waters at a time when explorers were leading cautiously prepared expeditions funded by kings would be quite impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/14 "2016-05-02T09:56:13Z")
Yeah, I’ve heard that story about the cod banks in Newfoundland here and there, but it’s the kind of thing that’s taken as “so what?” by anybody who doesn’t have a political agenda. Once those banks were found (which could be before or after 1500), the location would spread quickly among the fishermen of the area but it wouldn’t move to other social classes or outside of limited areas, nor would they have had much of a reason to land (they didn’t, and don’t, land in other areas either). It’s not as if they would have added the location to a GPS database. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/15 "2016-05-02T11:09:27Z")
It’s 20 years since I read it, but the first chapters in the book [How Deep is the Ocean](http://www.amazon.com/How-Deep-Ocean-Canadian-Fisheries/dp/0920336868?ie=UTF8&keywords=how%20deep%20is%20the%20ocean&qid=1462186806&ref_=sr_1_7&s=books&sr=1-7) goes into this in some detail. As I dimly recall, the French and Basque fishermen often landed to set up drying and salting racks for the cod they caught, but I don’t recall if any of this pre-dates Columbus or is slightly after his first expedition. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/16 "2016-05-02T13:16:22Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > I don’t see where he mentions that they did it secretly, only that the North American continent was no secret to French fishermen. > > The question I have is: what would they have fished for in those waters that they could not find closer to home? It’s not that overfishing was a issue back then, was it? It’s not that they couldn’t get it closer to home, it’s that relatively shallow and well-provisioned areas like George’s Bank and the Grand Banks are exceptionally rich fishing grounds. The Grand Banks off Newfoundland are said to be the most productive fishing grounds in the world. > [@](#): > > While there is no archaeological evidence for a European presence near the Grand Banks between the short-lived Greenland Norse settlement at L’Anse aux Meadows in CE 1000 and John Cabot’s transatlantic crossing in 1497, there is some evidence that voyagers from Portugal,[2] the Basque Region[3] and England (especially those from Bristol)[4] and others[5] preceded Cabot.[6] In the 15th century some texts refer to a land called Bacalao, the land of the codfish, which is possibly Newfoundland. Within a few years of Cabot’s voyage the existence of fishing grounds on the Grand Banks became generally known in Europe. Ships from France and Portugal were first to fish there, followed by those from Spain while ships from England were scarce in the early years.[7] These fish stocks were also important for the early economies of eastern Canada and New England. > **[Grand Banks of Newfoundland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Banks_of_Newfoundland)** > > The Grand Banks of Newfoundland are a series of underwater plateaus south-east of the island of Newfoundland on the North American continental shelf. The Grand Banks are one of the world's richest fishing grounds, supporting Atlantic cod, swordfish, haddock and capelin, as well as shellfish, seabirds and sea mammals. > The Grand Banks of Newfoundland are a group of underwater plateaus south-east of Newfoundland on the North American continental shelf. These areas are relatively shallow, ranging fr... I wouldn’t find it at all hard to believe that European fishermen frequently went that far afield. And I could see them not wanting to spread the word to competitors. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/17 "2016-05-02T14:19:11Z")
Presumably such fishermen would have had to take a great deal of salt with them, right? Would there be surviving records of salt purchases from which historians could make inferences? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/18 "2016-05-02T15:26:02Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > I don’t see where he mentions that they did it secretly, only that the North American continent was no secret to French fishermen. > > The question I have is: what would they have fished for in those waters that they could not find closer to home? It’s not that overfishing was a issue back then, was it? It seems unlikely that people would routinely and deliberately sail that far just to fish, at that time in history - unless they were supported by a shore-based operation to preserve the catch, they would be undertaking effort and risk quite significantly out of proportion to the benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/19 "2016-05-02T15:38:43Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It seems unlikely that people would routinely and deliberately sail that far just to fish, at that time in history - unless they were supported by a shore-based operation to preserve the catch, they would be undertaking effort and risk quite significantly out of proportion to the benefit. The catch was salted, something which has been done on-ship for centuries. No need for a land base. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Presumably such fishermen would have had to take a great deal of salt with them, right? Would there be surviving records of salt purchases from which historians could make inferences? The amount of salt involved would be the same whether the fish was being caught in Newfoundland or somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661/20 "2016-05-02T15:49:57Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > … unless they were supported by a shore-based operation to preserve the catch, they would be undertaking effort and risk quite significantly out of proportion to the benefit. Note that considerable cod fishing on the Grand Banks was done without any shore-based support. The fish were gutted, split and packed in salt, which quickly preserved them against spoilage and allowed a fishing vessel to stay at sea for months. ETA: Ninja’d by Nava. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-europeans-secretly-fishing-in-atlantic-waters-close-to-north-america-pre-1492/753661.md?page=2)