# Question regarding how the draft-dodging system worked **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 19, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586 "2015-07-19T05:46:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/41 "2015-07-19T23:49:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Desertion was not a crime in Canada at the time? I am doubtful. :dubious: Desertion, yes. If you’d taken the Queen’s shilling and deserted, that’s an offence. But, since Canada did not have conscription, there was no Canadian offence of refusing to turn up for mandatory military service. Someone who left the US to avoid the draft, but never was admitted to the US armed forces, wasn’t deserting because he’d never been a member of the military. Therefore not committing an offence that had a Canadian equivalent, so no extradition. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/42 "2015-07-20T00:30:32Z")
Bill Clinton’s stepfather co-owned the auto dealership with his brother and one other guy, according to the Wikipedia entry. I had previously read that his stepfather ran the parts or maybe the service section of the dealership. Apparently the three owners split up the running of the dealership so that they each ran their own section. Having grown up on a farm, I can tell you that a 400-acre farm isn’t a large one. It’s just barely big enough to make a living off of. Clinton’s stepfather was also a gambler, an alcoholic, and a wife beater. This meant that the Clinton family barely scraped by, despite his mother’s income as a nurse and his stepfather’s income as a co-owner of a car dealership and then as a farmer. Clinton’s mother and stepfather at one point got divorced and then soon got married again. If his stepfather hadn’t been such a screw-up, the income they made would have been sufficient to have made them solidly middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/43 "2015-07-20T00:42:56Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Bill Clinton’s stepfather co-owned the auto dealership with his brother and one other guy, according to the Wikipedia entry. I had previously read that his stepfather ran the parts or maybe the service section of the dealership. Apparently the three owners split up the running of the dealership so that they each ran their own section. Having grown up on a farm, I can tell you that a 400-acre farm isn’t a large one. It’s just barely big enough to make a living off of. Clinton’s stepfather was also a gambler, an alcoholic, and a wife beater. This meant that the Clinton family barely scraped by, despite his mother’s income as a nurse and his stepfather’s income as a co-owner of a car dealership and then as a farmer. Clinton’s mother and stepfather at one point got divorced and then soon got married again. If his stepfather hadn’t been such a screw-up, the income they made would have been sufficient to have made them solidly middle class. Ok - it all makes sense now. It’s interesting how different things can mean in different parts of the country, and how different the economics are. In the northeast, were I have lived my whole life, someone who owned, or part owned a car dealership and then was able to buy a 400 acre farm is usually far from poor, perhaps not even middle class. Well, I’m ending the hijack now - I think this thread thread is about draft dodging or something of the sort. Please accept my apologies everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/44 "2015-07-20T05:13:44Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Desertion was not a crime in Canada at the time? I am doubtful. :dubious: Desertion is not the same as draft-dodging. I don’t know if deserters were extradited, but they certainly could have been. I got a 2S deferment for 8 years through college and grad school by which time I was nearly 26 and they were not drafting 26 year olds (although I was eligible until 35). My first job teaching math was considered essential. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/45 "2015-07-20T06:01:47Z")
I remember listening to Clinton’s autobiography audiobook once, and “white trash” pretty much describes it- from wife beating, pill addictions, perpetually drunk, threatening his step-father with a gun (IIRC) or people dying early in auto accidents (I’m guessing alcohol involved) my reaction to his early years was the same “what a bunch of hillbillies!” Clinton grossly underrated his own talents, giving speeches standing in for the governor at campaign rallies while still in college, making it to Harvard and making Rhodes Scholar. Bush - he was shot down during the war and there’s newsreel footage of him being rescued at sea… oh, wait, that’s GHW Bush, WWII. The big controversy, if you recall, was that GW Bush somehow managed to miss much of his final flying time with the National Guard, while transferring to a different state to work on his father’s friend’s political campaign; there’s some debate whether he did in fact show up to the Guard for the required times while there, and what happened when he got back home. Of course, all records were destroyed in a fire it seems, and the authoritative CO was dead. During the 2004 campaign, the rich supporters of Bush trashed Kerry, who actually served in the front lines and actually go shot at quite a lot. Meanwhile, the Kerry campaign did not press the Bush side about the shortcomings of his service record - but much of the discussion at the time was that strings were possibly pulled to get GW in a position where he was unlikely to end up in Vietnam any time soon, and also the discussion was that Air National Guard was a pretty safe bet for staying away from actual combat. It is fascinating to think, though, that the people who have gotten us into the most recent wars - Bush and Cheney - both took pains to avoid serving in combat, while Kerry volunteered. (Of course, there were also claims that he did it in anticipation of a future political career) I worked with a fellow who “moved to Canada” to avoid the draft, and couldn’t go home for quite a while. He mentioned that a lot of the officer cadet corps in his school went into ROTC and quite a few of them did not come back from Vietnam. Not sure if that was snark or truth. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/46 "2015-07-20T09:23:30Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > . . . there’s some debate whether he did in fact show up to the Guard for the required times while there, and what happened when he got back home. Of course, all records were destroyed in a fire it seems, and the authoritative CO was dead. . . . And to confuse things even more, there were those letters or whatever other documents ( the [Killian documents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy) ) that turned up in 2004, purporting to be from Bush’s CO with clear statements about what a lousy Guardsman he was, etc… Somebody faxed these to CBS, where Dan Rather got them and ran them on _60 Minutes._ They were almost immediately thereafter shown to be a clear and obvious hoax, but Rather bit the bait and came out of the scandal looking like a doofus. He resigned as CBS news anchor a year or so later. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/47 "2015-07-20T12:02:36Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I repeat, if he wanted to avoid risk, there were other ways, and his decision to joinup was on the basis of evidence, probably motivate by wanting to fly. And what he did was pretty dangerous, probably less dangerous than many posts inside Vietnam. He was a young man, he wanted to have fun. What more fun can there be than flying £million aircraft at the government’s expense - it’s like the best fairground ride ever. Presumably, he could have done any ground, admin job he wanted but of course he went for the thrills. Do you really think he ever got any further in his thinking than that? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/48 "2015-07-20T12:51:32Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > And to confuse things even more, there were those letters or whatever other documents ( the [Killian documents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy) ) that turned up in 2004, purporting to be from Bush’s CO with clear statements about what a lousy Guardsman he was, etc… Somebody faxed these to CBS, where Dan Rather got them and ran them on _60 Minutes._ They were almost immediately thereafter shown to be a clear and obvious hoax, but Rather bit the bait and came out of the scandal looking like a doofus. He resigned as CBS news anchor a year or so later. Yeah, because the documents used Proportional Spacing–so they _must_ have been created by MS Word or some other package. Except that the IBM Executive typewriter had PS & was in use back then. (I used one.) Back to the main topic. Rather than “draft-dodging system” the topic should be Selective Service. Yes, there were some Conscientious Objectors–serious pacifists, usually due to religious convictions. But many young men of my generation had been raised to revere their fathers’ fight against fascism but did _not_ see the war in Southeast Asia as the same kind of struggle. Some protested & took things to court–others quietly kept their student deferments in order. (Switching schools usually meant they kept flunking out.) Of course, others let themselves be drafted or proudly joined. One guy I knew joined the Navy because he didn’t want to slog through the jungle; then a guy came to talk about the Seals. Hey, he was young. It takes all kinds–but some of us did & do look down on the Chicken Hawks–those who supported that war but avoided serving. Or who avoided service but later started unnecessary wars, wrapping themselves in the flag. (And cutting VA funding.) The Wikipedia article on [Champagne Units](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_unit) is a bit snide. Nowadays, Reserves & Nat Guard units are often sent overseas; this was quite rare back then & the units were quite selective. This quotation from Colin Powell seems genuine: > [@](#): > > I am angry that so many sons of the powerful and well placed and many professional athletes (who were probably healthier than any of us) managed to wrangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to our country (Of course, back in the Civil War you could just pay somebody to march off to war in your place.) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/49 "2015-07-20T13:10:32Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Yeah, because the documents used Proportional Spacing–so they _must_ have been created by MS Word or some other package. Except that the IBM Executive typewriter had PS & was in use back then. (I used one.) And it has been proven pretty conclusively that it IBM Executive typewriter [couldn’t have produced the documents](http://site.xavier.edu/polt/typewriters/fw.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/50 "2015-07-20T13:15:42Z")
md2000 writes: \> Clinton grossly underrated his own talents, giving speeches standing in for the \> governor at campaign rallies while still in college, making it to Harvard and making \> Rhodes Scholar. For what it’s worth, Clinton was never at Harvard. He did his undergraduate work at Georgetown and his law degree at Yale. Between them he was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/51 "2015-07-20T13:29:16Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > About that time (Trump was born in 1946, so he would have been eligiblle starting in 1965 or 1966) the flood of baby boomers was so huge that many local boards had a fresh pool of 19-year olds every year to fill their quotas, and never needed to call anyone beyond that group, so if you either had a deferment or managed not to be called in your first year of eligibility, chances were pretty good you’d never be called at all. That was really the era where all sorts of shennanigans were taking place to keep from being drafted in your first or second year of eligibility. > > In late 1969 the draft lottery was instituted. It was supposed to give some assurance that the system couldn’t be gamed so easily. What it really led to was the people with the highest lottery numbers not _needing_ to game the system so much. The ones with the low numbers were in the same situation as before. > > The lottery system was only in effect for a few years. The last draft call took place in December 1972. Hah… my dad managed to avoid seeing combat through a combination of a student deferment to see him through his last semester or two of college, and doing some sort of enlistment into the USAF during that period with delayed intake, so that when the Army came calling in 1969, he was able to say “Nope… I’m already in the Air Force.” before he actually shipped out to basic training. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/52 "2015-07-20T13:45:36Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Desertion is not the same as draft-dodging. I don’t know if deserters were extradited, but they certainly could have been. > > I got a 2S deferment for 8 years through college and grad school by which time I was nearly 26 and they were not drafting 26 year olds (although I was eligible until 35). My first job teaching math was considered essential. I had a 2S for undergrad, and was just under the wire for getting it before it was discontinued. I was a college freshman in 1970. To this day, I’m not sure I was really supposed to have one - I waited until I got a draft number, which turned out to be 22. By that time, the 2S had been discontinued, but I called up my draft board, explained that I had already been in school when they were still being issued, and I got one. Followed quickly by a cancellation of the physical I had been told to show up for as soon as I got the low number. Yeah, I got told “Ya know, this will mean you’re eligible until you’re 35”. I couldn’t see them taking guys over 30 even if they HAD been deferred unless the country was actually being invaded by the Soviet army, and anyway, the draft ended shortly thereafter, which was expected by that point. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/53 "2015-07-20T16:02:09Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > It was not necessary to get a deferment-you could join the ROTC program, and stay in school for 4 years-later, you could apply for a “hardship” deferment, or apply to join a unit that would never be mobilized (like the Army military police). Bill Clinton used the ROTC option to his advantage, and nobody questioned him. Or, you could join the Army and get a non-combat gig (like Al Gore, who was a reporter for the army newspaper). The closest Gore ever got to a fight was in a Saigon barroom…though he did say somebody shot at him once. There were many ways for the rich and connected to avoid the risk of combat. Wait, what? Military Police don’t deploy? Sorry but MPs have a very specific combat role. They are certainly needed and often deployed. And to say Gore avoided combat by going to Viet Nam is odd to say the least. > [@Habeed](#): > > The same story talked about how a bus showed up full of inner city blacks. All got off the bus looking as strong and hearty as 18 year old men tend to be. The author knew those were the people who were going to do the dying. No one told them to fake an illness, or that it would be a good idea to do so, or how to do it, etc. Black servicemen suffered 12.5% of the combat deaths in Viet Nam at a time when black males made up 13.5% of the population eligible for combat. Draftees accounted for about 30% of casualties. 75% of those serving in Viet Nam and 70% of the deaths were of volunteers. So if that anecdote is true some of them may have died but it was not the way you make it sound. As for the National Guard you may noting it is far from the refuge to get out it deployment now. The fundamental mission has not changed. The guard is there to get called up for combat. However the president has to declare a state of emergency for there to be large scale call ups. That state of emergency would also allow for stop loss. Johnson was unwilling to do that for political reasons and Nixon certainly wouldn’t while stating he was trying to get out of Viet Nam. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/54 "2015-07-20T16:17:33Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Black servicemen suffered 12.5% of the combat deaths in Viet Nam at a time when black males made up 13.5% of the population eligible for combat. I don’t want to drag the thread off topic (again!), but [this cite](http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/african-americans-in-combat/) puts the number much higher, at least in 1965. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/55 "2015-07-20T16:21:13Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I don’t want to drag the thread off topic (again!), but [this cite](http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/african-americans-in-combat/) puts the number much higher, at least in 1965. It’s pretty hard to argue with actual numbers: [Vietnam War Casualties (1955-1975)](http://www.militaryfactory.com/vietnam/casualties.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/56 "2015-07-20T16:33:19Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I don’t want to drag the thread off topic (again!), but [this cite](http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/african-americans-in-combat/) puts the number much higher, at least in 1965. I’ll assume that is true for 1965 which was before the hardest fighting and most casualties. My numbers are for the entire conflict. Percentages between different cites are slightly off because some count only combat deaths and others count all deaths. I don’t think the percentages are that far off though. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/57 "2015-07-20T16:54:33Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Black servicemen suffered 12.5% of the combat deaths in Viet Nam at a time when black males made up 13.5% of the population eligible for combat. . Taking the entire population, Wiki says blacks comprised - not only males - about 11% of the whole population in 1970. Sumits up somewheres … > **[Historical racial and ethnic demographics of the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States)** > > The racial and ethnic demographics of the United States have changed dramatically throughout its history. > During the American colonial period, British colonial officials conducted censuses in some of the Thirteen Colonies that included enumerations by race. In addition, tax lists and other reports provided additional data and information about the racial demographics of the Thirteen Colonies during this time period. > People have been enumerated by race in every United States census since the fir... ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/58 "2015-07-20T17:07:22Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Taking the entire population, Wiki says blacks comprised - not only males - about 11% of the whole population in 1970. Sumits up somewheres … > > [Historical racial and ethnic demographics of the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States) True. Although of course that does not account for who is eligible to be drafted or who could be in a combat role. That limits it to males in a certain age range. The cites I have seen say that black Americans made up 13.5% of the males in the draftable age range. I’m no census taker or statistician so I’m only going by what I can find. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/59 "2015-07-20T17:10:38Z")
The clincher on the fake Bush service documents wasn’t proportional spacing, but the fact that the dates - like “17th” - the “th” was superscripted. Ignoring that an ordinary office in one of hundreds of military bases was unlikely to have a top-end typewriter that could do proportional spacing, almost nothing commercially available did date superscripts, and it’s unlikely that even if one did, the typical typist would use that feature. however, Word did do so, and oddly enough, the typing was precisely spaced the same as Word’s elementary serif font. The fakery was glaringly obvious to anyone who knew anything about typing and office equipment from pre-word-processor days. It must have been done to be a joke, or faked by someone equally ignorant of technology. It’s astounding anyone fell for it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/60 "2015-07-20T18:53:58Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > So not a draft-dodger, but definitely a coward. **Moderator Note** Let’s refrain from political jabs in General Questions. No warning issued, but don’t do this again. Colibri General Questions Moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586.md?page=4)