# Question regarding how the draft-dodging system worked **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 19, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586 "2015-07-19T05:46:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/61 "2015-07-20T22:51:23Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Desertion is not the same as draft-dodging. I don’t know if deserters were extradited, but they certainly could have been. > > I got a 2S deferment for 8 years through college and grad school by which time I was nearly 26 and they were not drafting 26 year olds (although I was eligible until 35). My first job teaching math was considered essential. It’s worth noting that in some countries (but not the US or Canada) there isn’t a legal distinction between draft evasion and desertion; conscripts are automatically enlisted into the army whether they swear an oath or not. Anybody who fails to report for duty is subject to court-martial for desertion. It did not work that way in the US; conscripts had to swear the enlistment oath to be subject to military discipline, draft evaders were prosecuted in civil courts. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/62 "2015-07-20T22:58:00Z")
Back in the mid 60s there were lawyers who specialized in keeping people out of the draft. They would run their clients through all the various deferments, then appeal, etc. If you had the money for this, you didn’t get drafted. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/63 "2015-07-20T23:31:13Z")
Habeed writes (in post #18, which was quoted in post #53): \> The same story talked about how a bus showed up full of inner city blacks. No. The bus that showed up after the one full of Harvard and MIT students just departed was full of lower-middle-class white 18-year-olds (from the Chelsea neighborhood of Boston) who largely were just high school graduates. About 80% of the Harvard and MIT students got deferments, while 80% of the Chelsea boys didn’t get deferments and went straight into the army. Getting deferments was a matter of money, not principally of race. As I said in a previous post, I linked to that article early in this thread. Here it is again: [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2009/0911.fallows.html](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2009/0911.fallows.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/64 "2015-07-21T00:18:15Z")
A friend told me he was drafted during Vietnam but he joined the Air Force and never left the US. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/65 "2015-07-21T00:55:34Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > A friend told me he was drafted during Vietnam but he joined the Air Force and never left the US. My father enlisted in the Navy and the local draft board kept trying to induct him while he was on a ship in the middle of the Pacific. The family went through hell trying to get that paperwork straightened out. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/66 "2015-07-21T01:19:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Flying a plane is dangerous? How many pilots in a National Guard unit that wasn’t assigned to a combat zone died? Ask Dean Martin about his son. > **[Dean Paul Martin](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Paul_Martin)** > > Dean Paul Martin Jr. (born Dino Paul Crocetti Jr.; November 17, 1951 – March 21, 1987) was an American pop singer and film and television actor. A member of the California Air National Guard, Martin died in a crash during a military training flight. He was the son of entertainer Dean Martin. > Martin's parents were the singer and entertainer Dean Martin and his second wife, Jeanne Biegger. Dean Paul was the fifth of Dean Martin's eight children and Jeanne's eldest son. He attended the Urban Mili... Flying jet fighters is not like hopping on a Southwest flight. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/67 "2015-07-21T01:34:30Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > A friend told me he was drafted during Vietnam but he joined the Air Force and never left the US. The Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard had long waiting lists. IF you were drafted, you belonged to the Army or the Marine Corps, you didn’t get to go join another service. If that was the case, everyone would have joined the Coast Guard. Also, the Peace Corps was an option that took you out of the draft. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/68 "2015-07-21T03:14:43Z")
So high numbers were good and low numbers were bad. Was that the case? According to this link who would have fared well? > **[The Vietnam War Selective Service Lottery and the U.S. Draft | HistoryNet](https://www.historynet.com/whats-your-number/?f)** > > During the Vietnam War, the U.S. Selective Service System did radio and TV broadcasts of draft lottery numbers. Use our chart to find your lottery number. Al Gore: 030, March 31, 1948 Oliver Stone: 113, September 14, 1946 Sylvester Stallone: 327, July 6, 1946 Billy Crystal: 354, March 14, 1947 ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/69 "2015-07-21T03:18:36Z")
Got it! > **[How likely were you to be drafted during the Vietnam war?](https://ask.metafilter.com/214522/How-likely-were-you-to-be-drafted-during-the-Vietnam-war)** > > How likely were you to be drafted during the Vietnam war if you were eligible? The draft in the Viet Nam era was a lottery, with low numbers being called first. Young men registered with Selective Service (as they do today) and were given draft cards with their number on it. High number, less likely to be drafted. Also, when protesting the war, many young men burned their draft cards. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/70 "2015-07-21T03:21:22Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > So high numbers were good and low numbers were bad. Was that the case? > According to this link who would have fared well? > [The Vietnam War Selective Service Lottery and the U.S. Draft | HistoryNet](http://www.historynet.com/whats-your-number.htm) > > Al Gore: 030, March 31, 1948 > Oliver Stone: 113, September 14, 1946 > Sylvester Stallone: 327, July 6, 1946 > Billy Crystal: 354, March 14, 1947 That was answered in this quote from the earlier thread [Vietnam era draft lottery question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=175129). > [@Vietnam era draft lottery question](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-draft-lottery-question/166634/6): > > More info from an official source: > > **1969 Lottery** - "A lottery drawing - the first since 1942 - was held on December 1, 1969, at Selective Service National Headquarters in Washington, D.C. This event determined the order of call for induction during calendar year 1970, that is, for registrants born between January 1, 1944, and December 31, 1950. Reinstitution of the lottery was a change from the “draft the oldest man first” method, which had been the determining method for deciding order of call. > > "There were 366 blue plastic capsules containing birth dates placed in a large glass container and drawn by hand to assign order-of-call numbers to all men within the 18-26 age range specified in Selective Service law. > > "With radio, film and TV coverage, the capsules were drawn from the container, opened, and the dates inside posted in order. The first capsule - drawn by Congressman Alexander Pirnie (R- NY) of the House Armed Services Committee - contained the date September 14, so all men born on September 14 in any year between 1944 and 1950 were assigned lottery number 1. The drawing continued until all days of the year had been paired with sequence numbers. " > > "The lottery drawing held December 1, 1969, determined the order in which men, born from 1944 through 1950, were called to report for induction into the military. > > “ **The highest lottery number called for this group was 195** ; all men assigned that lottery number or any lower number, and who were classified 1-A or 1-A-O (available for military service), were called to report for possible induction.” > > Source: [http://www.sss.gov/lotter1.htm](http://www.sss.gov/lotter1.htm) > **1970 Lottery** - "The lottery drawing held July 1, 1970, determined the order in which men born in 1951 were called to report for induction into the military. > > “ **The highest lottery number called for this group was 125.** All men assigned that lottery number or any lower number, and who were classified 1-A or 1-A-O (available for military service), were called to report for possible induction.” > > Source: [http://www.sss.gov/lotter2.htm](http://www.sss.gov/lotter2.htm) > **1971 Lottery** - "The lottery drawing held August 5, 1971, determined the order in which men born in 1952 were called to report for induction into the military. > > “ **The highest lottery number called for this group was 95** ; all men assigned that lottery number or any lower number, and who were classified 1-A or 1-A-O (available for military service), were called to report for possible induction.” > > Source: [http://www.sss.gov/lotter3.htm](http://www.sss.gov/lotter3.htm) > > **1972 Lottery** - "The lottery drawing held February 2, 1972, determined the order in which men born in 1953 were called to report for induction into the military. > > “This lottery was conducted for men who would have been called in 1973; however, no new draft orders were issued after 1972.” > > Source: [http://www.sss.gov/lotter4.htm](http://www.sss.gov/lotter4.htm) > > You will find charts for all lottery numbers on the respective web pages. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/71 "2015-07-21T03:22:16Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The clincher on the fake Bush service documents wasn’t proportional spacing, but the fact that the dates - like “17th” - the “th” was superscripted. Ignoring that an ordinary office in one of hundreds of military bases was unlikely to have a top-end typewriter that could do proportional spacing, almost nothing commercially available did date superscripts, and it’s unlikely that even if one did, the typical typist would use that feature. however, Word did do so, and oddly enough, the typing was precisely spaced the same as Word’s elementary serif font. Thus, the hoax came to be known as Ra[sup]th[/sup]ergate. Another major give-away, IIRC, was the address on the letterhead, which included the ZIP code. Only the letter purportedly came from a time before there were ZIP codes. Oops. ETA: One popular conspiracy theory was that the hoax was perpetrated by Karl Rove and associates in order to destroy Dan Rather. If so, they succeeded brilliantly. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/72 "2015-07-21T04:34:30Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Thus, the hoax came to be known as Ra[sup]th[/sup]ergate. > > Another major give-away, IIRC, was the address on the letterhead, which included the ZIP code. Only the letter purportedly came from a time before there were ZIP codes. Oops. > > ETA: One popular conspiracy theory was that the hoax was perpetrated by Karl Rove and associates in order to destroy Dan Rather. If so, they succeeded brilliantly. And the upshot was that not only was the focus taken off the fact that Bush apparently blow off his NG service when he transferred to Alabama, but the credibility of the “liberal” media was dealt a major blow. All conservative commentators had to do was say “Dan Rather” and any claimed fact immediately came into dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/73 "2015-07-21T04:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > 1970 Lottery - "The lottery drawing held July 1, 1970, determined the order in which men born in 1951 were called to report for induction into the military. > > “The highest lottery number called for this group was 125. All men assigned that lottery number or any lower number, and who were classified 1-A or 1-A-O (available for military service), were called to report for possible induction.” My lottery number was 93, which would have gotten me called up if I hadn’t had a 2S deferment from 1969-1973. After graduation in 1973 I was reclassified as 1A, but by then the draft was effectively over. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/74 "2015-07-21T05:31:15Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > And the upshot was that not only was the focus taken off the fact that Bush apparently blow off his NG service when he transferred to Alabama, but the credibility of the “liberal” media was dealt a major blow. All conservative commentators had to do was say “Dan Rather” and any claimed fact immediately came into dispute. Much as I sympathized in 2004 with a war veteran severely trashed by people who had used many of the tricks listed here above to avoid the draft, I do find it amazing that NOBODY in Rather’s group had the smarts to see these glaringly obvious errors. I tend to think someone threw it together as a joke for a private little deception; they never expected it to take on the importance it did. The only attempt at obfuscation was to Xerox it several times until it was ragged to make it look “old”. But yes, if that was the best Rather’s team could do with fact-checking, either he was willfully blind or galactically stupid. Or both. I’m surprised nobody here has mentioned Dick Cheney’s draft-dodging trick - his daughter was born 9 months and 2 days after the draft began taking childless married men and his student exemptions had run their course. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/75 "2015-07-21T15:23:56Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m surprised nobody here has mentioned Dick Cheney’s draft-dodging trick - his daughter was born 9 months and 2 days after the draft began taking childless married men and his student exemptions had run their course. Please. As much as I hate Dick Cheney, how do we know that his daughter wasn’t in the womb for 9 months and 4 days? You don’t create a child on schedule like a cake. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/76 "2015-07-21T15:49:21Z")
^ clearly the devil’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/77 "2015-07-21T16:14:36Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Habeed writes (in post #18, which was quoted in post #53): > > \> The same story talked about how a bus showed up full of inner city blacks. > > No. The bus that showed up after the one full of Harvard and MIT students just departed was full of lower-middle-class white 18-year-olds (from the Chelsea neighborhood of Boston) who largely were just high school graduates. About 80% of the Harvard and MIT students got deferments, while 80% of the Chelsea boys didn’t get deferments and went straight into the army. Getting deferments was a matter of money, not principally of race. As I said in a previous post, I linked to that article early in this thread. Here it is again: > > [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2009/0911.fallows.html](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2009/0911.fallows.html) My apologies for misremembering. I also checked a statistical account of casualties - blacks were not killed any more often in Vietnam than their relative ratio in the population. The war screwed over poor people roughly equally harshly. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586/78 "2015-07-21T23:19:43Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Thus, the hoax came to be known as Ra[sup]th[/sup]ergate. > > Another major give-away, IIRC, was the address on the letterhead, which included the ZIP code. Only the letter purportedly came from a time before there were ZIP codes. Oops. > > ETA: One popular conspiracy theory was that the hoax was perpetrated by Karl Rove and associates in order to destroy Dan Rather. If so, they succeeded brilliantly. You don’t remember correctly. ZIP codes have been around since 1963. > **[ZIP Code](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_code)** > > A ZIP Code (an acronym for Zone Improvement Plan) is a system of postal codes used by the United States Postal Service (USPS). The term ZIP was chosen to suggest that the mail travels more efficiently and quickly (zipping along) when senders use the code in the postal address. > Introduced on July 1, 1963, the basic format comprised five digits. In 1983, an extended code was introduced named ZIP+4; it included the five digits of the ZIP Code, followed by a hyphen and four digits that designat... But you do remember something. I think. There was some forged letter or mailing purported to be from or to JFK that was initially “authenticated”, but was later identified as a fake by its use of a ZIP Code. I think. Eta. [Man Gets Prison Term for Selling Forged JFK Papers](http://articles.latimes.com/1999/sep/18/news/mn-11509) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-how-the-draft-dodging-system-worked/725586.md?page=3)