# Question regarding the order of adjectives in English (coordinate adjectives?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 31, 2022, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894 "2022-07-31T23:28:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/1 "2022-07-31T23:28:59Z")
I’m not sure what to call adjective that describe abstract qualities such as ‘expensive’ or ‘elegant’ (coordinate adjectives?). Are there rules of their particular order in English? If I say/write “the expensive elegant dress” or the “elegant expensive dress”(I prefer the former order but don’t know if it conforms to a rule or it’'s simply a preference) what rules govern the order? I realise I’m placing a different emphasis on certain qualities. Nonetheless is there a standard order for these particualr ajjectives like the one for the order of adjectives in general? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/2 "2022-07-31T23:33:11Z")
Here is an article about it: [Order force: the old grammar rule we all obey without realising](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/sentence-order-adjectives-rule-elements-of-eloquence-dictionary). > The rule is that multiple adjectives are always ranked accordingly: opinion, size, age, shape, colour, origin, material, purpose. Unlike many laws of grammar or syntax, this one is virtually inviolable, even in informal speech. You simply can’t say My Greek Fat Big Wedding, or leather walking brown boots. And yet until last week, I had no idea such a rule existed. > > In this case my ignorance does not constitute a professional emergency, since I doubt I’ve ever put adjectives in the wrong order. If you’re a native speaker, the hierarchy is ingrained in you. Only people trying to learn English actually need to know the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/3 "2022-07-31T23:57:13Z")
Thanks don\_t\_ask. I’m aware of the general order. I’m specifically interested in the qualities that have nothing to do with quantity, size, objective physical quality, shape, age, color or origin, material, type or purpose. I’m specifically interested only in those adjectival qualities that refer to opinion such as “expensive” or 'elegant". They are much more abstract and subjective. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/4 "2022-08-01T00:18:25Z")
I think what you are asking is if there is a particular order to be used when two or more “opinion” adjectives are used about the same noun. I don’t think there is a general order when two adjectives are the same type - I think they are most commonly joined by “and” but the order doesn’t matter except when it’s a set phrase. For example, it would be very strange to hear someone refer to a “crazy and wild party” or a “white and black striped couch” ---
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/5 "2022-08-01T05:01:37Z")
Thanks Doreen. That’s precisely what I’m asking about. I’m a native speaker so I do have a feeling for the right order but it would be nice to know whether there is any general rule for the order of ‘opinion’ adjectives. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/6 "2022-08-01T05:09:12Z")
This is almost scary. I was considering starting an almost identical thread on this topic about the same time you posted this. > **[Adjectives: order](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order)** > > Adjectives: order - English Grammar Today - a reference to written and spoken English grammar and usage - Cambridge Dictionary Along the lines of asking if anyone was ever actually taught this or just picked it up by osmosis or something. And if there are any exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/7 "2022-08-01T07:28:23Z")
If it’s two opinions, then the first is the one that seems to me emphasised. So the cost of an expensive [but] elegant dress weighs more heavily than the charm of an elegant [but - or could be and] dress. I think we’re down to style and euphony here, rather than a strict rule. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/8 "2022-08-01T10:07:14Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > If it’s two opinions, then the first is the one that seems to me emphasised. I’d say it was the reverse, the first is seen as qualifying the second. So an expensive elegant dress is _primarily_ an elegant dress, but it is in the subclass of expensive ones, not, say, reasonably-priced ones. Whereas an elegant expensive dress is _primarily_ an expensive dress, and you’re delineating it as not a tacky one. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/9 "2022-08-01T10:16:35Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > The rule is that multiple adjectives are always ranked accordingly: opinion, size, age, shape, colour, origin, material, purpose. Unlike many laws of grammar or syntax, this one is virtually inviolable, even in informal speech. You simply can’t say My Greek Fat Big Wedding, Isn’t your example an exception to the rule? “Big” measures size, while “Fat” seems to measure opinion, no? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/10 "2022-08-01T10:37:52Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Isn’t your example an exception to the rule? “Big” measures size, while “Fat” seems to measure opinion, no? By placing “fat” in that position, we are showing that it is an opinion. This is probably a reason for the hierarchy of adjectives. Consider in Spanish _“Hombre grande”_ and compare it to _Grand hombre._ ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/11 "2022-08-01T11:17:48Z")
I think you’re going to have to fall back on the bish-bash-bosh pattern, also cited in @don_t_ask 's article. The first vowel that differentiates “expensive” vs “elegant” is “i” vs “a” hence “expensive” precedes “elegant”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/12 "2022-08-01T11:28:52Z")
The order rules aren’t absolute: The opposite of a “pretty little thing” is a “big ugly thing”. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/13 "2022-08-01T11:57:02Z")
OK but that supports what I’m saying. “Fat” is judgmental (an opinion) but to call a wedding “big” is a measure of its size. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/14 "2022-08-01T12:08:51Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Along the lines of asking if anyone was ever actually taught this or just picked it up by osmosis or something. And if there are any exceptions. I’m pretty sure that this is a rule that is picked up by osmosis and that neither native speakers nor even people who study English as a foreign language are ever taught this. This is probably related to Benjamin Lee Whorf’s [cryptotype](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptotype) concept. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/15 "2022-08-01T12:28:42Z")
It seems to me that either both “big” and “fat” refer to size ( although possibly different aspects of size) or they both refer to opinion ( you and I might not agree on the the boundary between “big” and “not big” or "fat and “not fat” ) ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/16 "2022-08-01T12:32:25Z")
I think “big” is a little more objective (certainly less judgmental) than “fat.” If you tell me you had a big wedding, that means something of a factual nature whereas if you tell me you think I’m “fat” I might well respond “No, I’m quite slender.” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/17 "2022-08-01T13:00:33Z")
“Big” might be less judgmental than “fat”, but I’m not at all sure that it’s more objective. If I tell you I had a big wedding, how many guests do you imagine? To me, anything fewer than 200 guests is not a big wedding, but I’ve seen people describe weddings with 50 guests as “big”. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/18 "2022-08-01T13:21:03Z")
It seems to me that “big fat” is one of those set phrases like “wild and crazy” or “black and white” (like @doreen mentioned). The phrase “big fat” gets used a lot, and not always in reference to physical size: That’s a big fat lie! You’re a big fat idiot! Which you can say even to a skinny person. No one would ever talk about a fat big lie, or call someone a fat big idiot. Just like no one would ever talk about a white and black movie, even though there’s no logical reason not to. It’s a standard phrasing, and it sounds weird if we deviate from it. I am tempted to opine that “big fat” is, in fact, a single adjective whose meaning is somewhat different than the meanings of its two component parts. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/19 "2022-08-01T13:27:50Z")
I think “big fat” falls into the “bish-bash-bosh” pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894/20 "2022-08-01T13:55:25Z")
Excelllent point MrDibble. Thank you. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-order-of-adjectives-in-english-coordinate-adjectives/968894.md?page=2)