# Question regarding the proper use of the relative pronoun "whom" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 28, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924 "2017-11-28T03:26:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/1 "2017-11-28T03:26:28Z")
Hi The following use of the word "whom’ seems odd to me. I’d like to know if it’s correct. I look forward to your feedback. > **[Kevin Spacey is another ‘everyone knew’ — who else does Hollywood know about?](https://nypost.com/2017/10/30/kevin-spacey-is-another-everyone-knew-who-else-does-hollywood-know-about/)** > > As with Harvey Weinstein, it seems plenty in Hollywood knew all about Kevin Spacey. And even though they kept their mouths shut — ensuring nothing but more entitlement, more boldness, and likely mo… Whom else does the industry know about and protect? It’s hard to recall a time when the cultural landscape has shifted so dramatically. More than ever, the general public is inclined to believe self-reporting victims. More than ever, we are inclined to demand that the accused speak, that guilt be met with real consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/2 "2017-11-28T03:34:53Z")
“The industry” is the subject. “Whom else” is the direct object. Whom is the objective case. Who gave you the money? Davemich gave me the money. Whom did you give the money to? I gave the money to Davemich. Who knows about Harvey Weinstein sexually harassing women? The industry knows about Harvey Weinstein sexually harassing women. Whom does the industry know sexually harrassed women? The industry knows Harvey Weinstein sexually harassed women. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/3 "2017-11-28T04:31:43Z")
An easy rule of thumb is – reword the sentence to replace “whom” with either “he” or “him”. If “he” works, then the word should be “who”. If “him” works, then the word should be “whom”. In your example, “Whom else does the industry know about and protect?” would become “The industry knows about and protects him.” So “whom” is correct. Of course this is all theoretical, since correct use of whom is almost archaic in modern English. Hypercorrecting “who” to “whom” would be an error, but using “who” where “whom” is correct would be acceptable in all but the most formal contexts. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/4 "2017-11-28T04:39:47Z")
Here’s another test for the correct use of “whom”. If an answer to the “whom” question is “him, her, them”, then “whom” is used correctly. Since answers to “Whom else does the industry know about and protect?” are “It knows about him” or “it protects them”, then “whom” is being used correctly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/5 "2017-11-28T05:02:23Z")
It probably seems strange because we’re not used to seeing “whom” (or “him” or “her”) at the beginning of a sentence. Most people would probably say “who”. But it’s a question, and the word order is different from what it would be if it were a statement, or even a differently worded question: The industry knows and protects whom? It’s difficult to substitute “him” into the sentence, as written. That’s the simplest “who vs whom” test. Perhaps we could imagine a similar question: “Him, the industry knows about and protects?” Now, I need to get back to _For Whom the Bell Tolls_. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/6 "2017-11-28T06:38:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > “The industry” is the subject. “Whom else” is the direct object. Whom is the objective case. > > Who gave you the money? Davemich gave me the money. > Whom did you give the money to? I gave the money to Davemich. > > Who knows about Harvey Weinstein sexually harassing women? The industry knows about Harvey Weinstein sexually harassing women. > > Whom does the industry know sexually harrassed women? The industry knows Harvey Weinstein sexually harassed women. Exactly - “whom” is the object form of the word, “who” is the subject. Remember that the object can be object of the verb, or object of the preposition. And in many cases in English, the indirect object is actually expressed as the object of a preposition. Sometimes not. “He gave him a gift.” “Whom did he give a gift [to]?” The sentence sound perhaps a bit awkward without “to” but is grammatically correct. “He gave to him a gift” sounds archaic and literary, but is correct. Typically we would say “He gave a gift to him.” But, this put the emphasis on “to him” while “He gave him a gift” is less emphatic of the “him”. English is full of nuances. “For the benefit of whom is this concert given?” “Whom am I aiming at?” Whom shall I tell that the bell is ringing?" ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/7 "2017-11-28T09:27:42Z")
Rule of thumb: If the answer is “him”, the question is “Whom?” In the OP, the industry knows about him. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/8 "2017-11-28T09:38:46Z")
A point in many of the above heuristics, not quite explicitly mentioned, is that either “Who” or “Whom” are _interrogative_ pronouns, that are used to ask questions. And in English grammar, those would typically go at the beginning of the sentence or clause. So the kinds of sentences like that are _always_ questions. So the heuristic is to compose an answer to the question, using “he” or “him” as needed. This may also entail rearranging the words, either putting “He” at the beginning of the sentence or “him” at the end. But it makes clear if that is the subject or an object. “Who” (and maybe “whom”) can also be used as relative pronouns to introduce a clause. I haven’t thought much about that usage, but my first guess would be it must work about the same way. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/9 "2017-11-28T11:13:40Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > A point in many of the above heuristics, not quite explicitly mentioned, is that either “Who” or “Whom” are _interrogative_ pronouns, that are used to ask questions. And in English grammar, those would typically go at the beginning of the sentence or clause. So the kinds of sentences like that are _always_ questions. > > So the heuristic is to compose an answer to the question, using “he” or “him” as needed. This may also entail rearranging the words, either putting “He” at the beginning of the sentence or “him” at the end. But it makes clear if that is the subject or an object. > > “Who” (and maybe “whom”) can also be used as relative pronouns to introduce a clause. I haven’t thought much about that usage, but my first guess would be it must work about the same way. Thank you all. Very helpful ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/10 "2017-11-28T12:38:12Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Hi > > The following use of the word "whom’ seems odd to me. I’d like to know if it’s correct. > > _-snip-_ > > Whom else does the industry know about and protect? > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > “The industry” is the subject. “Whom else” is the direct object. Whom is the objective case. > > Who gave you the money? Davemich gave me the money. > Whom did you give the money to? I gave the money to Davemich. > > Who knows about Harvey Weinstein sexually harassing women? The industry knows about Harvey Weinstein sexually harassing women. > > Whom does the industry know sexually harrassed women? The industry knows Harvey Weinstein sexually harassed women. Actually, it looks to me that “industry” is the subject, and “does know” is the verb, but “whom” is actually the object of the preposition “about.” The reason the sentence sounds weird is that the preposition and the object are separated. “About whom else does the industry know and protect?” would be better, and make the relationships between the words clearer. “Know” can be both a transitive and an intransitive verb, so it is being used correctly. The word “else” is quite awkward, and removing it would improve the sentence. The whole sentence is rather awkward, though. I would change it to something like "How many others does the industry know about and protect? Or even, “How many others do those in the industry know about and protect?” ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/11 "2017-11-28T14:24:36Z")
Never mind who and whom - just get ‘me’ and ‘I’ sorted… please - pretty please. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/12 "2017-11-28T14:59:27Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Never mind who and whom - just get ‘me’ and ‘I’ sorted… please - pretty please. Me and my family could never quite get that right. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/13 "2017-11-28T15:18:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Me and my family could never quite get that right. And that can frustrate you and I. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/14 "2017-11-28T16:38:08Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Never mind who and whom - just get ‘me’ and ‘I’ sorted… please - pretty please. I’ve a horrid feeling that boat has sailed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/15 "2017-11-28T17:51:59Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I’ve a horrid feeling that boat has sailed. We might was well agree that the “whom” boat has sailed, too. I have to admit that I’m pretty careful about trying to be correct in written communication, but I almost always just use “who” when speaking. And I actually find it funnier when someone uses “whom” when it’s supposed to be “who”. It’s like an overcompensation or something. Or trying to sound sophisticated, but instead sounding a bit ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/16 "2017-11-28T18:14:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We might was well agree that the “whom” boat has sailed, too. I have to admit that I’m pretty careful about trying to be correct in written communication, but I almost always just use “who” when speaking. I tend to agree. I’m pretty careful about grammar and usage, and i tend to be pretty invested in maintaining what i see as reasonable standards. I spend considerable effort, in my job, encouraging my students to work on improving their writing. Still, if there’s one thing i’d be willing to let go, it’s “whom.” This is partly because so many people are so bad at working out the who/whom distinction that things would probably be improved if we just ditched “whom” altogether. I think there are even areas where “whom” is correct, but where “who” works just fine, and even sounds better. The writer J.Y.T. Greig, writing around 1930, said: > [@](#): > > Every sensible English speaker on both sides of the Atlantic says _Who were you talking to?_ and the sooner we begin to write it, the better. > > Quoted in Bryan Garner’s _Dictionary of Modern American Usage_ I could get on board with that. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > And I actually find it funnier when someone uses “whom” when it’s supposed to be “who”. It’s like an overcompensation or something. Or trying to sound sophisticated, but instead sounding a bit ignorant. Yep. And this is precisely why it might be the path of least resistance to get rid of “whom” altogether. My students stick “whom” in all over the place in their essays, often in places where “who” is actually the proper usage. It is, as you say, a sort of ignorant effort at formality and erudition, much like the myriad incorrect uses of “myself” that pervade modern speech and writing: “He went to the movie with Pete and myself.” “Please give the report to myself when it’s finished.” Drives me crazy. It seems particularly pervasive among the business crowd. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/17 "2017-11-28T19:43:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > It is, as you say, a sort of ignorant effort at formality and erudition, much like the myriad incorrect uses of “myself” that pervade modern speech and writing: > > “He went to the movie with Pete and myself.” > “Please give the report to myself when it’s finished.” > > Drives me crazy. It seems particularly pervasive among the business crowd. Ohhh…arrrrrrgh! That’s like an itch I can’t scratch. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/18 "2017-11-28T20:19:10Z")
Must be that some of us got beaten so badly for improper use of “me” from our teachers, that any use of it triggers a risk aversion response. 🙂 I say we should start a “ditch whom” effort. Whom is on board with that? And let’s celebrate the “singular they” while we’re at it. If anyone is agains that, they can go pound sand!! ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-regarding-the-proper-use-of-the-relative-pronoun-whom/802924/19 "2017-11-28T21:27:04Z")
[This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTv5ckMe_2M)is all you need to know.