Question to Atheists.

jenkinsfan,

I apologize for offending you; that was not my intention.

I was a bit confused by the “ultimate authority” lingo, but I do get your drift. I personally have a bit of a problem with discussing ethics, because I find the justification for having ethics to be rooted in ethics itself. I do not consider myself to be moral nor immoral in nature. I act in a fashion that I feel is beneficial to myself, my environment, and the entities within it. Those scenarios need to be taken on a case by case basis.

jenkinsfan: I would like to know where you got this notion:

I also struggle to explain why mankind hasn’t learned from its mistakes considering the incredible time period it’s had to do so.

What mistakes are you referring to that only atheiests would have a hard time explaining? Do other religions have it all figured out and atheists are still in the dark??? Please clarify.

And:

Help me out; is that the logic of an atheist? Answers please.

I can only answer for myself of course, but no this is not my logic. I am not quite clear what you are looking for here. If you mean the logic of why I believe there is no god, then no. I do not believe in god because I have no reason to. I do not seek a higher authority to explain things for me, nor do I seek a higher authority to answer to, nor do I need someone else to forgive me for my actions, I can do that myself. I get my morales and priorities from common sense and the Golden Rule. So I have no use for a god. And there is no tangible evidence to support the existance of god. If that was not the answer you were looking for, then I am sorry, I did not understand the question.

-N
(This is the first post I have tried using UBB code, so I hope it turns out right. Please forgive me if it does not.)

C.S. Lewis, in his book “The Abolition of Man” makes the claim that there is a common core of morals or ethics (whichever word is more accurate in this case) common to all human societies. The bedrock values being not to hurt others, to honor your elders, etc.

His claim (not saying I agree or disagree) is that Christianity is not a “new” ethical system, but rather a way of becoming able to live up to the universal ethical values that already are there. (I’m paraphrasing from memory so corrections are welcome.)

Thus if he is right (an open question at this point), there is no cause for wondering at where atheists/agnostics get their sense of what’s right and wrong. Same place we all do. It’s just part of being human. We may argue about some of the details, but few serious ethical thinkers ever come forward and say something contrary to the “basics” of the world’s various ethical/moral systems.

They may claim that one certain point is relatively more important than some other, in contradistinction to something somebody else has claimed.

But (if CSL is right) the basics of morality are pretty much the same for all of us.

This seems to agree with what I have seen in my relatively short (38 years) lifespan. I’ve never met anybody who really had a “new” morality. I’ve met people from lots of different religious backgrounds (and I mean LOTS), as well as atheists, agnostics, and others on various points of the “what you think about the BIG questions” scale. Most have been decent people trying to do what they thought was right. And I hope they would give a similar report of me.

(That being said, I may disagree with them about their answers to the BIG questions; I’m not a metaphysical (or moral) relativist. My religious orientation available upon request.)

“Everyone I meet just wants to live and love
And get along as best they can.”
–Bruce Cockburn


Your witty one-liner can appear HERE!
O…O
=o=

No offense taken. Thank you for honoring my request. I see what you mean by acting beneficial to the entities within your enviroment. Hey, I may not agree with you, but at least you practice what you preach!

ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?

Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.

Jenkinsfan:

Sorry if this seems like a hijack.

How will I know if I’m interpreting it the same way you do? “How can I [understand the Bible] unless someone explains it to me?” (cf. Acts 8:31)


Your witty one-liner can appear HERE!
O…O
=o=

First let me say I don’t speak for anyone but myself.

Secondly I am not an “atheist” in the strictest sense of the word. I am an agnostic with occaisional leanings towards deism, paganism, buddhism, or pantheism. However I do not find it likely that God activly intervenes in earthly events. Also, most organized religions seem so clearly man made that I find it impossible to believe in them.

Now for your question.

I believe, contrary to some of the other posters, that the fundamental basis of ethics is emotion. Specifically one feels compassion for other people and then tries to act in ways that at least let them alone and at most actively better their lives.

Whether one acts ethically or not depends, I believe, on the amount of compassion one has. If one is compassionate, one will act in an ethical manner. If not, not. Religion has little to do with this. Torquemada was a christian and acted in a cruel manner. Albert Einstein was at most a vague pantheist but generally acted in a compassionate manner. This is not to say that religion does not motivate people to act in an ethical way. Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King jr., and many others have been strengthened in their ethical behaviour by their faith. However I believe it was their compassion and desire for a better world that inspired them to do good in the first place.

Let me also say that the above is an example of descriptive ethics rather than prescriptive ethics. That is it is an explanation of why people behave rather than a statement of how they should behave.

You may be alarmed and say that emotion is a frail reed to base good behaviour on. I agree. However, I don’t think there is any other basis. People who dont care about others will behave badly, regardless of their religion. A cursory glance through history will show many horrible crimes committed in the name of religion. Recently, the Atlanta day trader murders were committed by a regular church goer. Ultimately people are either compassionate or not. I wish they all were but since they aren’t we will need laws and police to protect us and regulate society.

This is not to say that reason plays no role. Reason is neccessary to sort out moral dilemmas and write laws that regulate a just society. Rational self interest can also provide a basis for some forms of ethical behaviour. However when push comes to shove, it is our hearts that determine how we behave.

For your specific questions:

  1. I recognize no authority higher than my own conscience. I am, of course, willing to listen to others and actively seek advice when I am confused, but ultimate resposibility for my actions rests with me.

  2. My morals are not “just relative.” I believe in the golden rule, which strikes me as less a religious doctrine than a commonsense guide to behavior. whether you phrase it as “do unto others as…” or “will that your actions be universal” (whatever it was that Kant said) or “first do no harm,” this doctrine provides a basic objective grounding for morality.

However, even within this rule their are situations and dillemas that call for specific responses. I don’t know if this is what you mean by ‘relative’ but to me it’s just reality.

Finally, let me again say that these are my own thoughts. There is no central atheist doctrine anyone can reference. I’ve never read the humanist manifesto but I don’t doubt that I would disagree with at least some of it. It is a blessing and a curse of the non-religious that we must think for ourselves.

Thank you. I hope this is of interest to you.

Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat

The mistakes I were referring to were crimes against humanity such as the Holocaust. No, other religions don’t have it all figured out but they do have ways of explaining it, i.e. Satan(the Biblical figure-not the poster) sin and the like). Of course as a Christian I think atheists are wrong but don’t take that offensively because I’m sure that you don’t agree with me either. :smiley:

BTW, thanks for explaining how you feel about things.


ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?

Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.

I tend to think that an atheist, who believes that there is no original source of evil in the world (i.e. Satan), is more inclined to take personal responsibility for the state of things. I know that one of the hardest things that I have had to come to terms with is that sometimes people are stupid, intolerant, and cruel because they are people.

For the most important interpretation of the Bible I have see my new thread about the Gospel. Thank you.


ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?

Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.

The mistakes I were referring to were crimes against humanity such as the Holocaust. No, other religions don’t have it all figured out but they do have ways of explaining it, i.e. Satan (the Biblical figure-not the poster) sin and the like.

There is a multitude of factors that influence the way a person will turn out once they are an adult. Their parents, their enviroment, their biological chemistry, etc… Sometimes these influences get mixed wrong and you get a disaster like Hitler who led the Holocaust. I realize this is an oversimplified way of looking at the Holocaust, there were many factors of the Holocaust which I will not get into here, however these are the basics. And sometimes things turn out right. My parents divorced when I was 10, my father is an alcoholic, one of my brothers is a drug user, and one of my best friends was in a gang and was charged with accssory to murder (he was found innocent). If you follow what a lot of phycologists say, I should be royally ****ed up, but I am not. I live a well adjusted life, do not drink, and I have never helped kill someone. So, I believe the reasons for these crimes against humanity can not be explained in a simple, “The Devil made me do it.” but rather a mixing pot of numerous factors that all must be taken into account to get a good picture.

Of course as a Christian I think atheists are wrong but don’t take that offensively because I’m sure that you don’t agree with me either.

I like you. A lot of religous people I have debated with get all crazy when I give them my point of view. You listen. You may not agree, but you still calmly listen. :slight_smile:

-N

Strider, thank you for sharing a bit of your life. I must also confess that you’re one of the nicest atheists I’ve met. No, I don’t feel that your family turned out the way it did because the Devil made them do it. I do believe that Satan tempts everyone, everyday of our lives and your family must have given in to those temptations. However, according to the Bible being tempted is not a sin but choosing to yield to the temptation is. You obviously declined when the Devil offered you a chance to get you life messed up. And I’m glad you did. :wink:

I don’t see you as a product of your enviroment. Clearly, you’re anything but that. I see you as a living proof of the grace of God. He loves you Strider. BTW, this is the message that all Christians should be conveying to others so please don’t think that the louder, meaner ones make up all of us.


ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?

Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.

Well said, jf. Honestly, if I thought all Christians were like some of the folks that have been posting bile around here lately, I’d have run screaming from the Lord long since.

-andros-

I also think it’s worth pointing out that some folks do things that you or I might feel were reprehensible (like creating or using biological weapons, as an example) BECAUSE they’re theists, and feel that their God told them to.


A committee is a lifeform with six or more legs and no brain.

You’re right of course, I was just trying to keep my post fairly non-confrontational. There are probably more insane people who believe in a higher power than there are lunatic athiests, if only because religious people make up a higher percentage of the population.

JENKINS: as you have been very polite here, I will point out politely that even having a very strong belief in the Bible/God does NOT ensure one of any moral highground/compass. Exhibit 1.: Torquemada (the Inquisition).

I could go on, but I wish to be nice, in return.

It would suck for me and other Christians if athelists are right, and there is NO higher authority. However, even if someone was to come up with concrete PROOF that God doesn’t exhist, I would still not change my ways. Why? Because at least when I go through all the trials of life I can believe that there is some ultimate reward. If I believed my only reward for living a difficult life full of trials and problems was to become worm food and recycled back into the soil…if I didn’t have a soul that would live on…then I would kill myself right now. Because, hey, what would be the point?
And I don’t understand people who believe that if there was a God he would intervene on Earth and solve all the problems. He tried that, remember? He sent a Messiah to pay for our sins. Also, there is a little thing I like to believe in called Agency, Freedom of Choice. Wouldn’t divine intervention defeat the point of that? I also find that incredibly depressing, and if I felt that God had control of my life, I would kill myself then too. Cuz, again, what would be the point?


“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.

Of course, I agree with you. After all, the Devil lived in Heaven beside God and then still chose to sin. Interesting. However, I am fully aware of how religious people “justify” themselves; my OP was about how atheists decide between right and wrong. Thanx for yer courteousy.


ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?

Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.

Some atheists will disagree that the concepts of right, wrong, good, bad, and so on AS ABSOLUTES are valid at all, on the grounds that they are all completely subjective. Your idea and mine of “good” for any noun X (good beer, good food, good car, good idea, etc.) may be radically different, even if the two varieties of X we’re discussing are virtually identical and indistinguishable from an objective standpoint (Ford vs. Chevy, Budweiser vs. Coors, Taco Bell vs. Del Taco, and so on). This holds true for nonconcrete nouns like “moral decision.”

For example:
Is it a “good” moral decision for Yvette (a hypothetical person who does not exist) to have an abortion? You might say not, reasoning that life is God’s to grant or take, not Man’s. I might say the opposite, since Yvette is poor, in an abusive relationship, addicted to illegal drugs, has no reliable child care available, and lives in a rat-infested tenement, and the child would probably never have the opportunity to have a happy childhood, a chance to succeed, a good education, enough food, or good health. Who’s right? We both are. How can this be, you cry, with such a binary question? Simple: we used different criteria to arrive at our answers, and the question is not binary at all.

There are as many interpretations of all of these subjective words as there are people; do you agree, morally speaking, with EVERY SINGLE moral decision of EVERY SINGLE member of your parish? How about people from the parish across town? In other countries? Of other religions?

To get beyond subjectivism, we must fall back to objectivism. This means dealing only with measurable, quantifiable facts, as opposed to opinion of any kind. Which flower is prettier? Different people might have different opinions. Which flower is taller? This can be answered with certainty. This won’t help us settle the argument about which is prettier, though. This is because “pretty” is another subjective word. As another example, I don’t think that Julia Roberts is all that pretty. Many of my friends disagree strongly with me.

I once participated in a discussion on the Usenet in which the question was asked, “What is the best beer of all?” I opined that there is and can be no absolute best beer (or anything else), since goodness is a subjective measure. There can only be the beer that is best for the person making the decision, based on the factors that are going in to the choice for that person. These factors could even change from time to time, depending on who’s coming to dinner, the weather, the buyer’s budget, the availablity of certain brands, and so on.

So, to summarize all of the above, atheists decide right and wrong subjectively, applying criteria that vary from person to person, case to case, and moment to moment.


A committee is a lifeform with six or more legs and no brain.

I certainly don’t consider myself an atheist as I feel that it takes as much faith to believe there isn’t a god as it takes to believe there is one, since there in no conclusive evidence one way or the other.

And I am not sure if the term agnostic simply means you don’t know if there is a god or not (which is what I feel), or if there is more baggage to the term than that, so I don’t consider myself an agnostic either. I just consider myself someone who neither believes or disbelieves because I don’t know what the truth is.

I used to be a Christian, first as a Baptist and then in a charismatic church and I didn’t find Christians to be any better people than anyone else. The people in authority positions in the church invariably used the power of their positions in self-serving, often unethical ways that were no better than unabashedly non-religious people. And the followers in the churches so often co-opted their personal responsibilities to the leaders instead of considering their actions and making up their minds for themselves. Some high profile christians like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson even go to the extreme of using their christianity as a political weapon and to instigate social division.

Ultimately the best kind of person is one who thinks for himself and takes responsibilities for his own actions instead of relying on the teachings or moralities thought through by others. I find many agnostics and atheists are much better at this than the large majority of christians I have known.

To answer the OP, I think that atheists and agnostics, like any person who takes responsibilities for his own actions and his interactions with others, does the best he can. Sometime you do feel lost, but I think that is just part of life and morality is not something christians have any corner on; a lot of them just think they do.

pepperlandgirl sez:

It would suck for me and other Christians if athelists are right, and there is NO higher authority.

Exactly how would this suck? Because you decided to follow a set of morales that you found to be good and true, and now you find out that you are not going to be rewarded? So, I shouldn’t give the bum on the street a quarter cause I know he is not going to give me anything back? This is the problem that I have with most religions. Most people, read not all, follow the religion because they want to get something for it and and feel smug that us heretics are gonna burn because we did not follow the rules of the religion.
I follow my morales because I truly do believe these morales to be good and true and that I, as a human being, should follow these morales. I know that if I do not then nothing will happen to me, but that is the difference between a “good” and “bad” person. I do not have my morales because I am gonna get something from it. I do it becuase I feel it is “right.”

jenkinsfan:

Thank you, I would like to use that as my sig line if you don’t mind. :smiley:


“Strider…I must also confess that you’re one of the nicest atheists I’ve met.”