question to non-literal Christans regarding understanding the Bible

Returning to the OP, I should like to mention a non-mainstream, non-literalist school of Christian thought which avoids many of the issues mentioned in this thread, though admittedly it raises others. Suppose we dispense with the doctrine of divine inspiration. On this view, the Bible is simply the work of ordinary men trying to describe their history. Genesis, then, becomes little more than myth. What matters for a Christian is whether the NT is a substantially historical account. If Jesus was the Son of God, his crucifiction was an atoning sacrifice, he was resurrected (spiritually or physically) and those who accept this shall have everlasting life, Christianity goes through. No need for divine inspiration of the Gospels. It’s true or it ain’t.

Which is to say, as an atheist but former Christian, I don’t see how divine inspiration or literal interpretaton are necessary for belief.

I became a Christian because I saw looked at the people I considered to be moral heroes, people who embodied the kinds of values I wanted to live by, such as Martin Luther King; Mother Theresa; Deitrich Bonhoeffer; Norman Morrison, the Quaker who burned himself to death near the White House to protest the Vietnam War; my friend Lance, who runs a homeless shelter; and Guy Theodore, who founded a charity hospital in Pignon, Haiti, I found that the majority of them were not only Christians, but claimed that their Christianity informed their values and gave them the moral courage to live out those values faithfully.

I had experiences that gave the impression of originating outside my mind and of being divine. I made the decision to respond to them not by asking whether they in fact did originate outside me or were merely psychological phenomena, but by seeking to use them as an inspiration and a motivation for living morally, in the hope that I might become more like those people I admired.

Those people, and others I came to know, said that they found moral guidance and inspiration in Scripture, so I sought to do the same. It didn’t matter to me whether any particular part of it, or in fact any of it at all, was historically true or divinely inspired. What mattered was that people I knew and admired or read about and admired claimed that reading it had made them better. I never found much inspiration in reading the Bible, though I did find much in prayer and in Communion and in common worship. But the Bible nevertheless gave me a history of other people who had felt inspired to live in certain ways, and was a sort of constitution for the community in which I worshipped and which continued to give me inspiration.

Some passages of Scripture didn’t seem to have a clear moral lesson, and some passages seemed to imply lessons that were repugnant. But my friends and earlier Christians had found ways of interpreting these stories that inspired positive values in them, and I learned to do the same. When the interpretation was unclear, I sought whatever interpretation would inspire me to be better. That meant I had to bring my own morals and values to the game; I didn’t derive my morals from Scripture, but that was ok. None of my friends and none of the people I admired suggested that I should derive my morals purely from Scripture or that I shouldn’t start from my own moral reasoning, which after all had led me to Christianity and Scripture to begin with.

I was perfectly aware that someone who wanted to justify racism, hatred, violence or other bad values could use the Bible to do so, but that wasn’t important, any more than the fact that philosophy or literature or science could be used to promote badness. What mattered was whether I could use the Bible to become a better person, more loving, more accepting, more generous, more courageous, more giving. And to be perfectly honest, I found that I could.

Eventually, I decided that I couldn’t forever bracket aside the question of factuality, either about some of the stories or about my own spiritual experiences. And I knew before I even asked myself the question that none of it was factual in my opinion. Once I admitted that to myself, the whole thing collapsed like a house of cards.

After all of that was over and I began identifying myself as an atheist, I even began to have doubts about whether those people I’d admired were in fact worthy of admiration. (My opinion on Mother Theresa, for example, has changed.) But I still think the values I tried to inspire in myself were mostly good ones, and religion did help me live those values. It’s harder, for me at least, to be good when I don’t feel loved all the time, when I don’t tell myself that there is a higher purpose to it all, when I don’t see the person who cut me off as a beloved child of God. I think I do pretty well, anyway, but it is a bit harder.

Out of curiosity, what’s wrong with Mother Theresa?

I’m not arguing with anything you say. I guess I was wondering if the bible was the attempt of a certain group of people living in a certain time and area to help them “eat healthy” in terms of foods that would probably not harm them. However, I have no cites on that. It was merely something that struck me as odd that they mention these restrictions and that’s where my thoughts took me.

Certainly, the P author, wanted to have authority via religion by the laws and rules listed. Again, like many other things, did the OT start out as “pure” in terms of the original writers wanting to help people remember or “live well”, whatever that means, but centuries later, it turned into a way for the interpreters to control things? (Was thinking about other institutions that start out meaning well but eventually have corruption.)

Good discussion! Thanks!

In a nutshell, she did very little to help the poor people of Calcutta and instead made a (literal) fetish of their suffering. The hospices she set up lacked even the most basic palliative medical care–not because it wasn’t affordable, but because her goal was not to reduce the suffering of her patients but rather to teach her patients and her followers to use her patients’ suffering as a means of communing with Christ. Of course, when she or her followers became sick, they didn’t commune with Christ, they went to the best western hospitals for actual medical care. She also allowed people to believe that she was actually caring for the poor and dying and used that image of herself to raise millions of dollars for her order, while supporting the most repressive of political regimes around the world so long as the dictators in question favored the Catholic Church.

Most of the public criticism of Mother Theresa has come from Christopher Hitchens, BTW. I’m not a fan of Hitchens: he never met an ad hominem he didn’t like. Much of his criticism boils down to the fact that Mother Theresa was a Catholic. But I think he makes a good case for the points I mentioned above.

If one believes the Bible is divinely inspired, then it is reasonable to think it is all true except for the obvious parables. If one doesn’t, you need to analyze each section in terms of logic and history. If the Gospels are divinely inspired, you can pretty much assume the resurrection happened, since that is clearly vital. If not, you need to do historical analysis, which makes this event doubtful at best.

Beyond this, if the Bible is divinely inspired you have good reason to accept its moral messages. If not, you need to either draw moral conclusions from events that actually happened or use standard secular moral reasoning - which makes the Bible no better a moral guide than the works of any good ethical philosopher.

Being Jewish I’ve often heard claims that the dietary laws demonstrate contact with God since they protected the people from all sorts of nasty diseases you get from swine. But lots of cultures survived without this restriction, and back then you could get diseases from water also. I don’t know where these laws came from, but they don’t seem to support divines inspiration very well. There was a requirement in Jewish tradition to wash hands before eating, which I think early Christians pooh-poohed. That must have been divinely inspired. :smiley:

I submit that a historical view of the Gospels (without divine inspiration) gets more traction than this. Bear in mind that the core belief of Christianity is salvation by Christ’s redeeming sacrifice. Whether Genesis is literally true is theologically trivial. Further, one of the things which follows from concluding the Gospels are substantially accurate is that Jesus is the Son of God. His teachings, then, would have more weight than a good ethical philosopher. Of course, whether the premise is true is another matter. After all, I am now an atheist. But, when I was a Christian, I was more comfortable grounding my faith on the historical argument. Divine inspiration, ISTM both then and now, is hard to defend from the text.

To put this in perspective, were you taught that the Bible (what Christians call the OT) is divinely inspired? If not, there’s nothing prima facie invalid about a Christian taking the same view. I wish more of them would. It would save us a lot of fuss over stuff like evolution.

Interesting.

I guess I’m not personally claiming that’s all it was for or that other cultures didn’t find their own to “protect” themselves against disease or avoiding “unclean” animals. It was something I had heard and thought it answered the OPs post.

And, yes, unfortunately as you point out, while THIS thing may have helped them avoid something bad, such as disease, THAT thing may have helped them avoid something good for them!

Thanks!

What I don’t understand about this is that we have the surviving documents from the council of Nicea when the church declared Jesus as 2/3rds God and 1/3 human. We have those documents! And it seems to prove that before then, there was debate about his divinity. To me, this brings up the question if people closer to Jesus’ time believed he was divine or a new sect of Judaism.

This brings up a lot of interesting points for me. I mean, it’s obvious that if Jesus said what we attribute to him, he was certainly a radical in his day. Very radical ideas about how god is supposed to be worshiped as well as how people should live their lives. Why did the early church need to make him divine as well? To help others? Did people like their gods? This was a way to give them that? I know a lot of “pagan”, and by this I mean the original use of country, worshipers were brought over when things of their faith were incorporated into Christianity. Is that all that was done with Jesus, to give his teachings some divine legitimacy?

So then I also ask, why do people need a higher power to live a good life? Is it because of class? All are supposed to be reminded that they are nothing before god? Bring the high down to remind them to be good to others? Was Jesus an early Marxist in seeing a class division? What does religion give people that philosophy does not?

This being the straight dope, I expect answers to all of those questions! :smiley:

Both and neither, depending on who one talked to in which year.
The idea of the divinity of Jesus may have developed more slowly than most Christians, today, would recognize. Paul’s letters are really not that strongly Trinitarian. By the time the Gospels were written, the idea of the divinity of Jesus was much stronger. Lacking any actual sermons or letters from the period 30 - 50 or any other documents besides Paul’s letters from 50 - 70, it is not really possible to set a specific date at which the divinity of Jesus would have become a serious belief. Christians would set the date as the Sunday following the crucifixion, others would set the date in the 60s or later.
We have lots of history showing a wide diversity of thought regarding the nature of Jesus. It was outright fighting over these differing opinions that led Constantine to seek a Council, (held at Nicaea), to resolve those issues.

We also know that the earliest Christians were regarded as just one more Jewish sect. (Nero’s persecution, in Rome, targeted both Christians and Jews, although a lot of Christians have never quite gotten the word on that point.) As more Gentiles converted to Christianity, that association became more tenuous and following the Jewish Revolt of 66 - 70, Judaism (the religion), made a concerted effort to disassociate itself with the Christians. By the early 2d century, the two groups were identified separately.

As to “Jesus as 2/3rds God and 1/3 human,” I am not sure whether your are getting mixed up regarding the descriptiojn of the Trinity–God is One, yet God comprises three persons in that oneness–or some other belief, but at Nicaea Jesus was held to be fully God and fully human. The specific teachings of Arius, that Jesus was not one in divinity with The Father was the catalyst for the Nicaean Council.

It’s also pretty clear that the people at Nicea didn’t see themselves as creating a new doctrine, but merely affirming what they all (except Arius) had believed all along. Apparently even people who had been charitable towards Arius’s ideas before the Council, when they actually heard Arius explain what he really meant, were all, “Dude. Stop talking.”

Wow. Thanks!

I don’t know where I got it but for some reason, I had it in my mind, and I said it wrong here, that Jesus was declared 2/3s human and 1/3 god. (I think that’s the way it’s supposed to be, not 2/3s god and 1/3 human as I originally said.) However, I can’t find anything that supports it. Docetism is close, as is Arianism, but not exactly it mainly because those fractions are set in my head.

Not sure where I got this idea.

Further, if I had thought about it a bit more, I knew by 100 AD that they thought he was divine, so it had to be earlier than that. However, I thought I read somewhere, maybe even here, that the gospels were obviously altered and the resurrection part was added, since the original gospels didn’t have that and ended with Jesus’ death. As the resurrection seems to be a major part of Christianity, seems like a weird thing to tack on at the end. But I don’t have a cite for that.

Wow. Really need to clear my head on that as it’s stuck there and I’m not sure why. I do see that the wikipedia entry talks about the Homoiousian compromise and I wonder if I put or saw the numbers to that?

So, Jesus dies around 35AD and it takes another forty years before he is declared divine? is that correct? And if so, IIRC, they didn’t write things down right away because they thought he was coming RIGHT back, as in their lifetime, right? It wasn’t until the temple was destroyed in the 70s that they figured they should write it down?

Wow, did we “only” get the Nicene creed from there, which started the split into east and west? And with the creed, it’s the definition of how Jesus was divine?

What you may be thinking of is the ending of the gospel of Mark, which in the earliest manuscripts ends at verse 8, before any resurrection appearances of Jesus, leading many to suspect that the rest (verses 9-20) were added to the gospel later. But even then, Mark ends (rather abruptly), not with the death of Jesus, but with the discovery of the empty tomb and the announcement that Jesus is risen.

The Nicene Creed affirmed the majority views of the early fourth century. It did not create anything new. The dates for the origin of any particular belief are not documented, probably, as you note, because the early church did not see a need to document things when they beleived the end times were right around the corner.

The Resurrection is attested somewhat early–Paul clearly believed it by the 50s. The point at which belief in the Resurrection became an indication that Jesus was divine is less clear. The Resurrection was not added to any Gospel. Statements regarding the divinity of Jesus may have been inserted because of current (70 - 95) belief or they may have been statements made by Jesus and passed orally to later authors, but we simply have no documentation to prove either point.

Reading that (both here and in your original post) made me think of Gilgamesh, who two-thirds god and one-third man.

No, I’m not suggesting a connection between Jesus and Gilgamesh. If I were going to do that it would be between Jesus and Herakles. Or Jesus and Dionysus.

In Hebrew School the pre-Abraham part of Genesis was treated differently from the post-Abraham part. It was taught more as history than as divine inspiration. Since we have lots of books arguing about what it all means, there is precious little thought that a single answer can be correct to any question.
The thing about the historical perspective is that it starts from evidence, not from the supposition that the Bible is correct. In some sense, even if Abraham never lived we all make our individual covenant, which is probably more important. It wasn’t important if there was no Davidic empire either. But if historical evidence is against the claims of Christianity (except for the existence of Jesus) I’d think that would make a lot more of an impact.
Divine inspiration is just code for special pleading. If you posit that a book is divinely inspired, you don’t have to critically analyze it the way you would a book without such a claim.

Today claiming divine descent is a radical position. Back then it was rather standard, with real kings and emperors as well as legendary heroes claiming to be descended from gods (or being divine, as the Emperor was.)
Apart from very early legends, the concept of a person being of divine descent is and was foreign to Judaism, so it would seem reasonable to suppose that this drifted in from the pagan environment. It also clearly gave pagans the early Christians were attempting to convert another reason to listen, as the supporter of a politician might invent a heroic war record or something. The Messiah, of course, was in no way divine.

Hmm. Good points. Divine right of Kings and all of that. Basically, ways for the rulers to claim legitimacy for their rule. And it is certainly true with me that if a political leader brings up god that it seems weird to me they would do that. But then, I’m not the majority they are trying to appease!

So, if the early church leaders were doing this about Jesus, again was it a way to appeal to beliefs that already existed as a way to ease other believers into the new faith?

Good points. Thanks!