# Questions about Citizens United and political ads... **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 10, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316 "2012-09-10T18:49:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/41 "2012-09-12T17:56:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Elucid, > > The laws prevent this from happening. > > By law, TV and radio stations have to give “equal access” and “equal time” to all political candidates and this is enforced by the FEC and the FCC. > > To give an example, I’m sure you’re probably more familiar than I am with the Prairie Island nuclear power plant. > > If someone proposed a ballot iniative shutting it down, the power plant couldn’t buy up all the air time on TV or the radio to prevent people from running ads encouraging people to vote for the iniative. What! The FEC and FCC infringe upon our absolute and sacred right of free speech? The Devil you say! And yes, I’m more or less familiar with Prairie Island. But I caution you that Minnesota makes a poor example for political generalizations. I used to think people couldn’t be simultaneously weird and bland, but I was wrong. These are people who think cream of mushroom soup is a sauce, but elected Jesse Ventura to be Governor. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/42 "2012-09-12T18:10:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What! The FEC and FCC infringe upon our absolute and sacred right of free speech? The Devil you say! The FEC does not regulate speech. The FCC regulates the airwaves because they are owned by the public. For the most part, it doesn’t regulate the amount of content of speech. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/43 "2012-09-12T18:12:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But propaganda works, its a brutal fact of human psychology. If we naively depend on absolutes, we make our democracy the prey of scoundrels who care nothing for our principles or our purity. If you don’t accept the right of people to hear whatever they want and think for themselves, without claiming that they need help from the government to handle “propaganda” then you don’t really believe in democracy and don’t understand the principle of freedom of speech. Nobody wants you to protect them from speech, or their own psychology. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/44 "2012-09-12T18:14:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The laws prevent this from happening. > > By law, TV and radio stations have to give “equal access” and “equal time” to all political candidates and this is enforced by the FEC and the FCC. I don’t think the law doesn’t requires that at all. Candidates, or anyone else, who want to buy ad time must pay for it, and get as much as they can pay for, no more. > [@](#): > > To give an example, I’m sure you’re probably more familiar than I am with the Prairie Island nuclear power plant. > > If someone proposed a ballot iniative shutting it down, the power plant couldn’t buy up all the air time on TV or the radio to prevent people from running ads encouraging people to vote for the iniative. I don’t think that’s true at all. I don’t think there are any restrictions on how much ad time you can buy. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/45 "2012-09-12T18:15:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Of course the truth can be found, if you seek it out. Been a radical lefty for forty years, because I did just that. So why do you think others can’t do the same? Are you somehow smarter than everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/46 "2012-09-12T18:59:02Z")
Humility? Modest self-effacement? This is not the Way of the Texan. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/47 "2012-09-12T19:06:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Maybe. Too early to buy new dancing shoes, but there are hints abroad that money is losing its oomph. Did Romney win by advertising, or did he win by default? Then there’s Obama, who by standard political wisdom would lose to Hannibal Lecter. We live in interesting times. > > Corporadoes are business people, they invest in elections for business reasons, they expect a return on their investment. Which is how they got to own one political party outright, and a half-interest in the other. Until the Tea Party fanatics took over the base of the Pubbies. And they cannot be relied upon to see the clear reasoning of Calvin Coolidge, to wit: The business of America is business. > > But it ain’t about civics, and it ain’t about ideology, its about business to these people. (With the probable exceptions like the Koch Brothers.) If Daddy Whorebucks spends 10 million dollars to elect Romney and reliable Republicans, and all they get back for it is Obama on the left and batshit Tea Partiers on the right, that is not a good return on investment, they will be a lot more careful next time. > > Maybe you can’t fool all the people all the time, even with tons of money. Dare we hope? We do dare. Do dare. Camptown ladies sing this song, Oh we do dare day! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/48 "2012-09-12T19:24:55Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I have a big problem with this, and I’d vote against the guy for it. I imagine most voters in Ohioda would too. > > Except the truth can be found all kinds of places besides TV ads and message boards. TV, radio and print news, public forums, the scoundrels’ opponent’s website… See, this is my problem with Lance. He is a very imaginative guy. he imagines that voters are not influenced by professional political liars. This is of course incredibly naive and counter-factual. And yet he is capable of making some very fast and slippery arguments. It’s a real puzzler. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/49 "2012-09-12T19:34:38Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > See, this is my problem with Lance. He is a very imaginative guy. he imagines that voters are not influenced by professional political liars. This is of course incredibly naive and counter-factual. And yet he is capable of making some very fast and slippery arguments. It’s a real puzzler. See, this is my problem with you. You misrepresent my argument, and fail to understand it or don’t try. Of course voters are influenced by professional political liars! That’s their right. People have the right to lie, and to believe lies, and to be gullible idiots - or to believe that they are right, and YOU are the gullible idiot. You may not decide for them. They will decide who is lying and what to believe. Not you and not the government. You may not arrogantly declare that you are smarter than everyone else and know what’s a lie or not and regulate speech. Got it now? Seriously, this is one of the most fundamental principles of our society. It’s absurd that I have to explain this to you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/50 "2012-09-13T09:59:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Elucid, > > The laws prevent this from happening. > > By law, TV and radio stations have to give “equal access” and “equal time” to all political candidates and this is enforced by the FEC and the FCC. > > To give an example, I’m sure you’re probably more familiar than I am with the Prairie Island nuclear power plant. > > If someone proposed a ballot iniative shutting it down, the power plant couldn’t buy up all the air time on TV or the radio to prevent people from running ads encouraging people to vote for the iniative. [Equal Time](http://uspolitics.about.com/od/electionissues/a/fcc_equal_time.htm) does not appear to say what you want it to say and has so many exceptions as to render it pretty useless for your argument. Equal Access, (actually, the [Fairness Doctrine](http://uspolitics.about.com/od/electionissues/a/fcc_fairness.htm)), has been a dead letter for over 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/51 "2012-09-13T23:02:41Z")
What I’m seeing in 2012 is that for the first time, a sitting President has been allowed to establish a mythology around himself without the media contesting it. In every other election, I’ve felt that the public had a pretty good handle on who the President was. This time is different. The media dominates the political discourse. Worrying about 30 second ads is like worrying about a stubbed toe when your liver is failing. That being said, the 1st amendment trumps any concerns I have. If the media wants to go totally in the tank for a President and act as his mouthpiece, that’s their right. As corporations, they have that right. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/52 "2012-09-13T23:31:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What I’m seeing in 2012 is that for the first time, a sitting President has been allowed to establish a mythology around himself without the media contesting it. Fox News is blacked out in your area? Have you actually read Newsweek, lately? I really don’t see where your claim originates. I see a lot of claims that Obama, (who has demonstrated no antipathy to business or capitalism, in general), is supposed to be a socialist. I see all sorts of claims that Obama is secretly arranging for a Republican House and a Republican-filibustered Senate to take every gun away from every citizen in the U.S. despite his significant silence on issues related to guns since he took office. I really don’t see any mythology of his own creation or created by the DNC or by George Stephanopolous or by anyone else who supports him being allowed to go uncontested. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/53 "2012-09-13T23:33:13Z")
This worshipful media that you refer to… Does that include such remedial media as Fox Gnaws, NewsBusters, Rush Blimpball, Nancy Gross, NewsMuck, Blightbart, etc. _ad newseum_? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/54 "2012-09-13T23:54:01Z")
No, but it does include the New York Times, MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, and Time. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/55 "2012-09-14T07:12:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No, but it does include the New York Times, MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, and Time. So, you’re just complaining that not EVERY media outlet slavishly follows the Republican line? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/56 "2012-09-14T11:47:46Z")
There’s Fox. That’s the only conservative TV channel. The print media is more diverse. I’m noting that the networks have far more influence when it comes to being kingmakers than anyone funding 30 second TV ads. I dare say Stewart or Colbert could bring one or the other candidate’s poll numbers down with a good joke if they wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/57 "2012-09-14T11:50:46Z")
I think the liberal conspiracy already got to Breitbart elucidator. Well, not the site, sure… In fact, the liberal media already took care of [Hitchens and Gore Vidal](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-t-takeLxY), presumably because they didn’t toe the line. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/58 "2012-09-14T12:35:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No, but it does include the New York Times, MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, and Time. There’s never a story that challenges Obama’s image in those outlets? None of them reported, for instance, Romney’s comments criticizing Obama on the whole embassy attack thing? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/59 "2012-09-14T12:36:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I dare say Stewart or Colbert could bring one or the other candidate’s poll numbers down with a good joke if they wanted to. Because a bunch of Romney voters watch Steward and change their minds based on what they see there? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316/60 "2012-09-14T14:39:10Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I think the liberal conspiracy already got to Breitbart elucidator. Well, not the site, sure… > > In fact, the liberal media already took care of [Hitchens and Gore Vidal](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-t-takeLxY), presumably because they didn’t toe the line. Let them hate us, so long as they fear us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-citizens-united-and-political-ads/634316.md?page=4)