# Questions about Hitler and Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of Europe's Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168 "2013-09-18T19:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/241 "2013-09-20T14:12:09Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > So, how long is this Gish Gallop going to continue? Until **Gack** quits. He isn’t going to win and he knows it. What he doesn’t realize is how stupid his arguments are and how silly his position is, and how much sillier it gets every time he posts. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/242 "2013-09-20T14:14:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ok, Wiesenthal. My point still stands- you are wrong. There is no conflict, there are mountains of research, and the fact that one person may have made something up does nothing to discount the overwhelming evidence. You are correct. But it does go to the credibility of the Wiesenthal Center and others who have used the five million figure. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/243 "2013-09-20T14:16:22Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > I read somewhere, but can’t document now, that they have 400 persons on staff. That seems like enough to me. And even if the actual records are not online, how about a summary, like the summaries of the Auschwitz records that are available. Do you honestly think that a) there is going to be some ‘smoking gun’ in those documents that means the holocaust never happened and that b) anyone really gives a damn that they are not processing the documents to _your_ satisfaction? ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/244 "2013-09-20T14:16:31Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > I read somewhere, but can’t document now, that they have 400 persons on staff. That seems like enough to me. And even if the actual records are not online, how about a summary, like the summaries of the Auschwitz records that are available. …They have 26,000 meters ( **16 MILES** ) of space in their warehouse and 30 million records. I don’t know if they are making efforts to get this stuff online, but with 400 people (Assuming they ALL can process documents), how long would it take to do that work? 1000 people? 10,000? Are the records even sorted effectively? As I said, their resources are dedicated to the families of survivors looking for information. If you want to go find this information and make it available to everyone, go for it. If you are worried about arrest for denying the Holocaust, _don’t walk through the Berlin airport wearing Nazi paraphernalia or shouting that Nazis are awesome_ and they will never know. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/245 "2013-09-20T14:16:36Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > You are correct. But it does go to the credibility of the Wiesenthal Center and others who have used the five million figure. So you’re changing the goalposts again. There’s mountains of evidence for millions killed, which is what the issue is. You offer nothing if all you can suggest is that some people were careless with facts. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/246 "2013-09-20T14:18:03Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The point, confirmed in a previous post by renowned holocaust scholar R J Van Pelt, is that the gas chamber just as it is today was presented to the public for 50 years as a functioning gas chamber in its found state. So? It was a trivial error that has since been corrected. Now address the mountain of other evidence pointing to a systematic extermination effort. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/247 "2013-09-20T14:18:55Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > You are correct. But it does go to the credibility of the Wiesenthal Center and others who have used the five million figure. No, it does not, really. Especially not compared to the huge number of lies told by their neo-Nazi opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/248 "2013-09-20T14:20:04Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > I read somewhere, but can’t document now, that they have 400 persons on staff. That seems like enough to me. And even if the actual records are not online, how about a summary, like the summaries of the Auschwitz records that are available. [From their website:](http://www.its-arolsen.org/en/help-and-faq/faq/index.html) > [@](#): > > **How many employees work for the ITS?** > > Almost 300 people work for the ITS, of which one third is involved in the digitisation and another third in the process of inquiries from survivors and family members of victims. Adjusting to the change of its tasks and objectives, the institution strives for a structural change and, consequently, for a reduction in personnel in a long-term perspective. With the women’s share in ITS staff coming to 78 percent, the male employment rate is 22 percent. 32 percent of the staff are part-timers. The quota of severely handicapped people in staff numbers as a whole is fairly high at the ITS, i.e. 14 percent. They are kept pretty busy because > [@](#): > > Every year the ITS receives more than 10,000 inquiries from about 70 countries relating to the fate of Nazi persecutees and former forced labourers. In 52 percent of the cases, the inquirer is interested in details on the persecution of concentration camp, ghetto and Gestapo prison inmates. In another 28 percent, information is requested on forced labour, and a third quota of 20 percent is interested in retracing the post-war history of displaced persons. To an ever-increasing rate, inquiries are filed by the second and third generations. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/249 "2013-09-20T14:22:28Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > …They have 26,000 meters ( **16 MILES** ) of space in their warehouse and 30 million records. I don’t know if they are making efforts to get this stuff online, but with 400 people (Assuming they ALL can process documents), how long would it take to do that work? 1000 people? 10,000? Are the records even sorted effectively? > > As I said, their resources are dedicated to the families of survivors looking for information. If you want to go find this information and make it available to everyone, go for it. If you are worried about arrest for denying the Holocaust, _don’t walk through the Berlin airport wearing Nazi paraphernalia or shouting that Nazis are awesome_ and they will never know. First, they have had the records for 50 years now. Second, I could see the records, but scholars who have devoted their lives to studying the matter, e.g. Jurgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno, Arthur Butz, would be arrested. Incidentally, when Butz wrote his book ‘The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, the Case Against the Presumed Extermination of the European Jews’ in the 70s he had access to the archives ! They had been pretty much open till that time. They were closed shortly thereafter. Coincidence? (I can get a link if requested). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/250 "2013-09-20T14:29:33Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > (I can get a link if requested). Oh, by all means, since your claim alone isn’t sufficient. Preferably from a source other than the IHR. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/251 "2013-09-20T14:34:53Z")
Since the arguments you’ve presented so far has been roundly debunked (and not for the first time, I’m sure), how about you tell us **Gack** , what _conclusion you draw_ from all the evidence that has been presented to you in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/252 "2013-09-20T14:37:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, by all means, since your claim alone isn’t sufficient. > > Preferably from a source other than the IHR. It’s from a short article by Butz in this report … [http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/documents/newsite/sr/online/sr\_140.pdf](http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/documents/newsite/sr/online/sr_140.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/253 "2013-09-20T14:41:31Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > It’s from a short article by Butz in this report … > > [http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/documents/newsite/sr/online/sr\_140.pdf](http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/documents/newsite/sr/online/sr_140.pdf) Please note that this link comes from CODOH-Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust, another denialist site. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/254 "2013-09-20T14:43:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please note that this link comes from CODOH-Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust, another denialist site. ‘Denialist sites’ are the only place where you will find articles by Arthur Butz. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/255 "2013-09-20T14:46:12Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The door in the movie is from Krema 5. The intact gas chamber is in Krema 1. > > There is a whole labyrinth of argument about what is the real door in Krema 1 and what isn’t, and what is the real wall and what isn’t, etc., this all followed Cole’s revelation that the gas chamber was a reconstruction. The original plans for Krema 1 are available and included in a book by … can’t remember the name … then the Nazi plans for converting the crematorium into an air raid shelter have also been found, there is all sorts of data that gets thrown into this ‘debate’. That is called evidence, your side has nothing but a misleading door bit that was a result of what the Nazis and the reconstruction did. Cole was wrong, and once again the building had a gas chamber, the door that you talk about was an addition or a replacement of the original as the Germans made changes to the location, and other new and improved gas chambers were built nearby. > [@Gack](#): > > But we don’t need to concern ourselves with that. The point, confirmed in a previous post by renowned holocaust scholar R J Van Pelt, is that the gas chamber just as it is today was presented to the public for 50 years as a functioning gas chamber in its found state. As others, even me, pointed out, So? You are indeed claiming that the arrival of the Pilgrims or the Gettysburg battle never took place and that the location is a fraud, even when nowadays a correction was made and the clarifications show that indeed there was once a gas chamber and a crematorium in the location, and overwhelming evidence that in other nearby locations even worse and more effective gas chambers and crematoriums were made and located. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/256 "2013-09-20T14:48:24Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > First, they have had the records for 50 years now. > > Second, I could see the records, but scholars who have devoted their lives to studying the matter, e.g. Jurgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno, Arthur Butz, would be arrested. > > Incidentally, when Butz wrote his book ‘The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, the Case Against the Presumed Extermination of the European Jews’ in the 70s he had access to the archives ! They had been pretty much open till that time. They were closed shortly thereafter. Coincidence? (I can get a link if requested). First off, link it. Second: I hate that inference. Holy balls. “Something happened and then SOMETHING ELSE happened. Coincidence?” -President Bush (Sr) was elected in 1988 and the USSR fell in 1991. Coincidence? -112 Men died during the Hoover Dam project. The first was on 12/20/1922 and was JG Tierney. The Last was on 12/20/1935 and was Patrick Tierney. JG Tierney’s son. Coincidence? -During Production of Deus Ex in 1999/2000, the developers forgot to include the skybox rendering of the WTC to the NYC skyline. The in-game explanation was that it was a terrorist attack. Coincidence? -The day after Barack Obama won the 2008 election, the Illinois lottery drawing had a winning number of 6-6-6. Coincidence? -Timberlane was a 14th century decendant of Genghis Kan and spent much of his life conquering Asia. When Soviet archaeologists opened his tomb, they found an inscription reading “Whomsoever opens my tomb shall unleash an invader more terrible than I.” The tomb was opened June 20, 1941. [Operation Barbarossa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa) began June 22, 1941. **COINCIDENCE!!!1** [Yes. They all (and more) are](http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_531_29-mind-blowing-coincidences-you-wont-believe-happened/?view=article). Third: How long has internet archiving technology been around? 15 years max? And before the last 5, it was pretty miserable to archive nicely. Now you have CMSs that are pretty good. Let’s do some basic math: 30,000,000 records times 240 seconds (4 minutes) per record (which is optimistic) is 7.2 Billion seconds (228.3 Man Years) of man hours to invest. Going with the revised count of 300 people they could generate roughly 540,000 hours of work per year (Assuming 1800 work hours a year put in) and it would take them 3.7 years to complete the task. Doing nothing else. No bullshit talk at the water cooler. No going to the bathroom. No watching the news during the workday about the EU melting down and the rise of the Zombies. Nothing. Else. It ALSO assumes that they would be able to scan, enter meta data (NOT the full document data), and save all within 4 minutes. Every time. Gee, I can’t see why they haven’t already finished. or something. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/257 "2013-09-20T14:50:28Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > First, they have had the records for 50 years now. First, current technologies and digitization and the internet has not been around nearly that long. What did you expect them to do before modern technology came along? [QUOTE=Gack;16682996Second] , I could see the records, but scholars who have devoted their lives to studying the matter, e.g. Jurgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno, Arthur Butz, would be arrested. [/quote] Scholars??! You’re taking the piss now, aren’t you? These fuckers are at the top of their IHR class on google: [Jurgen Graf](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Graf) [Carlo Mttogno](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Mattogno) [Arthur Butz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Butz) Your credibility is nill, Gack. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/258 "2013-09-20T14:52:35Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Let’s do some basic math: 30,000,000 records times 240 seconds (4 minutes) per record (which is optimistic) is 7.2 Billion seconds (228.3 Man Years) of man hours to invest. Going with the revised count of 300 people they could generate roughly 540,000 hours of work per year (Assuming 1800 work hours a year put in) and it would take them 3.7 years to complete the task. Longer-32% of the staff are part timers, and they are cutting staff soon. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/259 "2013-09-20T14:54:28Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > ‘Denialist sites’ are the only place where you will find articles by Arthur Butz. Draw your own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/260 "2013-09-20T14:55:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Longer-32% of the staff are part timers, and they are cutting staff soon. You have obviously never tried to scan a bunch of documents before. I take far more issue with the 4-minutes-per-document estimating than the fact that they are losing people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168.md?page=14)