# Questions about Hitler and Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of Europe's Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168 "2013-09-18T19:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/281 "2013-09-20T18:33:24Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > I have no idea whether or not your great-grandma was lying to you, and in fact I don’t even have an opinion on it, because I don’t know what she told you. > > What is the full story? Which camp? What exactly did she see? How about when my mom saw her mother, little sister and two little cousins gunned down, in Auschwitz, in front of her. Would you like the date? See a photo of my dad’s tattoo? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/282 "2013-09-20T18:34:20Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > It’s from a short article by Butz in this report … > > [http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/documents/newsite/sr/online/sr\_140.pdf](http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/documents/newsite/sr/online/sr_140.pdf) From what I can tell, some revisionists are upset because some keepers of some historical records aren’t interested in giving them access any more. I don’t see any indication access has been generally denied. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/283 "2013-09-20T18:37:34Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Jews, gypsies, communists, homosexuals, etc, were killed in WWII but not nearly in numbers generally accepted. The Nazis had no intentions of killing them. They just wanted to relocate them. They all died of diseases and had to be mercifully cremated to avoid it spreading to the rest of the population. The Nazis were simply misunderstood and a great injustice has been committed by the world in maligning them as mass murderers. You’re just drawing your conclusions based on “research”. > That about right? Don’t forget “there have been many mass murders in history and the Nazis perpetrated only one of them, so it’s unfair they’ve been singled out this way.” ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/284 "2013-09-20T18:38:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Your question won’t be answered, Fenris. It doesn’t fit with the preconceived narrative. > > The comparison of Holocaust denial to creationism is a good one, actually. You can find inconsistencies, bad witnesses, poorly labelled evidence, and small errors of fact in the texts of any historical event. There is a posting on Slashdot today that talks about this (specifically the teaching of intelligent design), complete with a link to the source: > [@](#): > > _“Here’s an op-ed by first-time politician, long-time Slashdotter Brian Boyko, where he talks about his experiences [testifying at the Texas Board of Education in favor of having real science in science textbooks](http://www.boykotx.org/why-are-some-hell-bent-on-intelligent-design/). But beyond that, he also tries to examine, philosophically, why there is such hardened resistance to the idea of evolution in Texas. From the article: ‘[W]hat is true is that evolution tests faith. The fact of evolution is incontrovertible and supported by mounds of empirical evidence. Faith, on the other hand, is fragile. It is supported only by the strength of human will. And this is where it gets tricky. Because to many believers, faith, not works, is the only guarantee that one can pass God’s litmus test and gain access to His divine kingdom. To lose one’s faith is to literally damn oneself. So tests to that faith must be avoided at all costs. Better to be a philosophical coward than a theological failure.’”_ [Why Are Some Hell-Bent On Teaching Intelligent Design? - Slashdot](http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/0134223/why-are-some-hell-bent-on-teaching-intelligent-design) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/285 "2013-09-20T18:41:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Your question won’t be answered, Fenris. It doesn’t fit with the preconceived narrative. > > The comparison of Holocaust denial to creationism is a good one, actually. You can find inconsistencies, bad witnesses, poorly labelled evidence, and small errors of fact in the texts of any historical event. Any. Using Gack’s logic, I can cast doubt upon the existence of any historical event. I can make just as strong an argument as Gack’s that the Titanic never sank, that evolution is not true, that vaccines don’t work, that World War I never occurred, that Theodore Roosevelt was never President of the United States, that the earth is flat… anything. I could argue that last year’s Super Bowl never took place. It’d be so easy. Using this sort of logic we have people right now arguing that the Pentagon was hit by a missile, not an airplane, on September 11, 2001, a claim that is no less absurd than any other example I’ve come up with. > > The entire point to reality denial is that you have to spend all your time arguing over the shape of a pebble but never acknowledge the mountain it sits at the foot of. Gack will not acknowledge your mountain. He can’t, lest he take his eyes off the pebble. It’s usually a three stage process: 1. _Tell people they should “look at all the evidence”._ Okay, that’s not a bad idea. But keep in mind that any event produces a huge amount of evidence and it’s virtually impossible to look at all of it. 2. _Find pieces of evidence that support your opinion._ As I noted, there’s a huge amount of evidence about every event. You’ll find pieces of evidence that point in a variety of directions. You’ll find pieces of evidence that contradict other pieces. So you can find some evidence for almost any position. 3. _Ignore all the other evidence._ Remember step one? Abandon it. Now that you’ve found some evidence that supports your opinion, just focus on that and ignore the overwhelming mass of evidence that supports a different conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/286 "2013-09-20T18:42:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Don’t forget “there have been many mass murders in history and the Nazis perpetrated only one of them, so it’s unfair they’ve been singled out this way.” And lest we forget, “Nazis kept meticulous records.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/287 "2013-09-20T18:46:25Z")
OK, children. This is getting us nowhere. I’m not closing this yet, as I maintain some small hope that something might come of it. Gack, it’s time for you to make a real thesis of your position and defend it, not just fall back on more questions. The rest of you, keep the snark to a minimum and let’s see what comes of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/288 "2013-09-20T19:00:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > 1. _Find pieces of evidence that support your opinion._ As I noted, there’s a huge amount of evidence about every event. You’ll find pieces of evidence that point in a variety of directions. You’ll find pieces of evidence that contradict other pieces. So you can find some evidence for almost any position. Well, related, some misconceptions will always arise about a historical event. I could buy that the producers of Oprah’s show repeated something that is widely believed but actually incorrect. I could buy that “lampshades of human skin” were a myth (or at most, there was a single incident which got exaggerated into a widespread practice because it’s compellingly horrific). It’s easier to challenge Oprah than serious historians, so ignore the latter and concentrate on the former. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/289 "2013-09-20T19:08:48Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > OK, children. This is getting us nowhere. > > I’m not closing this yet, as I maintain some small hope that something might come of it. Gack, it’s time for you to make a real thesis of your position and defend it, not just fall back on more questions. > > The rest of you, keep the snark to a minimum and let’s see what comes of it. The point I’m repeatedly trying to make is that there is an incredible amount of information that the public is completely unaware of, and that it needs to be presented so that an informed decision can be made about what happened during the holocaust. Thus, in every post I try to include new information. Some of it I regard as quite remarkable, reviewing - the provenance of the film/photos of the holocaust victims that all of us have seen and that was shown in the Oprah show, the documentary film made by the Brits on entry to several camps, the extensive photos of Belsen, the Blobel confession, the excerpt from Hoess’s book describing his capture, the Auschwitz documents, the Bad Arolsen documents, the reconstruction of the Krema 1 gas chamber, the doors to the Krema 1 gas chamber, the interview with Frantisek Piper … and so on. Not one person in 100 is familiar with this information, it is completely excluded from the main stream press. It is illegal to analyze this information in 17 countries and seriously frowned on in the US in any setting other than a very few web sites. And my efforts to discuss it here have met with the usual hysteria, insults, and vituperation. This is all expected and is a standard tactic to prevent the information from seeing the light of day. And it is unfortunately almost always effective. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/290 "2013-09-20T19:11:51Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > And my efforts to discuss it here have met with the usual hysteria, insults, and vituperation. This is all expected and is a standard tactic to prevent the information from seeing the light of day. Why do you think that is? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/291 "2013-09-20T19:12:55Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The point I’m repeatedly trying to make is that there is an incredible amount of information that the public is completely unaware of, and that it needs to be presented so that an informed decision can be made about what happened during the holocaust. > > Thus, in every post I try to include new information. Some of it I regard as quite remarkable, reviewing - the provenance of the film/photos of the holocaust victims that all of us have seen and that was shown in the Oprah show, the documentary film made by the Brits on entry to several camps, the extensive photos of Belsen, the Blobel confession, the excerpt from Hoess’s book describing his capture, the Auschwitz documents, the Bad Arolsen documents, the reconstruction of the Krema 1 gas chamber, the doors to the Krema 1 gas chamber, the interview with Frantisek Piper … and so on. > > Not one person in 100 is familiar with this information, it is completely excluded from the main stream press. It is illegal to analyze this information in 17 countries and seriously frowned on in the US in any setting other than a very few web sites. > > And my efforts to discuss it here have met with the usual hysteria, insults, and vituperation. This is all expected and is a standard tactic to prevent the information from seeing the light of day. And it is almost always effective. Well, I don’t recall signing up for your 12 week lecture series. Why don’t you go ahead and make your statement _then_ provide the cites you think back them up? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/292 "2013-09-20T19:15:43Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > Not one person in 100 is familiar with this information, it is completely excluded from the main stream press. It is illegal to analyze this information in 17 countries and seriously frowned on in the US in any setting other than a very few web sites. So far you have not posted anything that hasn’t been said in other Straight Dope threads. Your “evidence” was reviewing and dismissed in those threads and this one is no different. You can dispense with the attitude and summarize your case or you can move on and bother people on some other website. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/293 "2013-09-20T19:22:42Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > I have no idea whether or not your great-grandma was lying to you, and in fact I don’t even have an opinion on it, because I don’t know what she told you. > > What is the full story? Which camp? What exactly did she see? None of this is important, and frankly, I have no desire to tell a Holocaust denier anything more personal than I already have. She told me this happened _to her_–it wasn’t a friend-of-a-friend talking about something that happened to someone. She showed me her tattoo. What would be her motive for lying to me? You make the obviously Jew-hating bullshit claim that the Nazis were essentially good guys who put Jews in camps (for some reason) but made sure they were clean, and showered regularly–and despite the regular showers and wonderful living conditions, somehow, magically, there were typhus epidemics that wiped out millions of Jews (and millions of others). You get this load of horseshit from generic Jew-haters and actual Nazis. She told stories about starving in the cold, filthy, intentionally cruel conditions, seeing relatives killed, she had a tattoo…and she saw and experienced this _personally_. Either she was lying or your neo-Nazi buddies are lying. Jew-haters have a motive to lie about the Holocaust: they hate Jews and want to make their Nazi buddies less of the monsters they were. My grandma, with physical evidence to back her up had no reason to lie to me. So…I can come up with a solid reason why your Holocaust denying buddies would make up their diseased lies. What possible reason would my great-grandma have to lie to me at roughly age 13? It’s not like she would have gotten publicity from it. PS–you never did suggest an explanation as to what happened to 30-40 relatives who just disappeared into the happy fun holiday camps you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/294 "2013-09-20T19:23:43Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > And my efforts to discuss it here have met with the usual hysteria, insults, and vituperation. This is all expected and is a standard tactic to prevent the information from seeing the light of day. And it is unfortunately almost always effective. Please list, specifically, what information you have waiting in the wings that is desperately waiting to see the light of day, and which you have been prevented from sharing. Because from my point of view, what I’ve seen is people repeatedly and increasingly urgently requesting exactly that - that you share what information you keep claiming to have. So, here’s your chance. You can tell us ANYTHING. Lay it all out. One big, huge infodump post. All those mounds of data that have been hidden away, that no one will let you talk about. Do it. Now. Put it ALL out there. In your very next post. Go ahead and do it. It doesn’t matter how you think people will react to it. This is all anonymous, after all, and the other people who are Looking for Truth like you are will find their way here eventually to see the pearls you have cast before swine. There’s no reason to keep hiding your data away. Come on. Let’s see it. Or else shut the hell up about how you’re being oppressed. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/295 "2013-09-20T19:25:35Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > And my efforts to discuss it here have met with the usual hysteria, insults, and vituperation. This is all expected and is a standard tactic to prevent the information from seeing the light of day. And it is unfortunately almost always effective. What hysteria, insults and “vituperation” ? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/296 "2013-09-20T19:40:36Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The point I’m repeatedly trying to make is that there is an incredible amount of information that the public is completely unaware of, and that it needs to be presented so that an informed decision can be made about what happened during the holocaust. > > Thus, in every post I try to include new information. Some of it I regard as quite remarkable, reviewing - the provenance of the film/photos of the holocaust victims that all of us have seen and that was shown in the Oprah show, the documentary film made by the Brits on entry to several camps, the extensive photos of Belsen, the Blobel confession, the excerpt from Hoess’s book describing his capture, the Auschwitz documents, the Bad Arolsen documents, the reconstruction of the Krema 1 gas chamber, the doors to the Krema 1 gas chamber, the interview with Frantisek Piper … and so on. > > Not one person in 100 is familiar with this information, it is completely excluded from the main stream press. It is illegal to analyze this information in 17 countries and seriously frowned on in the US in any setting other than a very few web sites. > > And my efforts to discuss it here have met with the usual hysteria, insults, and vituperation. This is all expected and is a standard tactic to prevent the information from seeing the light of day. And it is unfortunately almost always effective. You’ve provided no new information. Everything you’ve offered has been seen and/or debunked before. None of it comes close to making a dent in the mountains of evidence that the Nazis tried to eliminate the Jews of Europe, and succeeded in killing between 5 and 6 million Jews. You’re being deceived into thinking that this stuff is new- it’s not. It’s old, and moreover, it’s false. It’s been shown to be false over and over again. You’re not persecuted here. You’re challenged because what you offer is weak- indeed, it’s DOA. This is the big leagues for fact-checking, and you’re playing T-Ball. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/297 "2013-09-20T19:42:27Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The point I’m repeatedly trying to make is that there is an incredible amount of information that the public is completely unaware of, and that it needs to be presented so that an informed decision can be made about what happened during the holocaust. Then present it here. Now. Just a list of links would suffice for people to review. No need for comment about them just yet. > [@](#): > > Not one person in 100 is familiar with this information, it is completely excluded from the main stream press. It is illegal to analyze this information in 17 countries and seriously frowned on in the US in any setting other than a very few web sites. So what is the list of these countries (by name) and the references for each country (we call that law around here) that make it illegal to analyze the information? Just a list of countries and their cite-able laws would be sufficient. > [@](#): > > And my efforts to discuss it here have met with the usual hysteria, insults, and vituperation. This is all expected and is a standard tactic to prevent the information from seeing the light of day. And it is unfortunately almost always effective. On the contrary, the folks here are some of the most demanding, exacting, yet friendly group you may ever meet in cyberland. We just get a bit perturbed when a comment is made without attribution to support an alleged claim. No one is preventing you from posting the information you claim will not see the light of day, _except for you_. Even the mods around here have cut you some slack for a while. I suspect when a mod has a scratch that needs itching something is gonna give. I suggest lathering up on some Avon SOS about now. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/298 "2013-09-20T19:55:08Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > Not one person in 100 is familiar with this information, it is completely excluded from the main stream press. It is illegal to analyze this information in 17 countries and seriously frowned on in the US in any setting other than a very few web sites. That’s a lie. It’s illegal to make/publish public claims denying the Holocaust in some countries. It’s not illegal to “analyze” information. Interestingly, Germany, the one country that would most benefit from “setting the record straight” is one of the strictest about enforcing laws against Holocaust denial and revision. Why do you think that is? > [@Gack](#): > > And my efforts to discuss it here have met with the usual hysteria, insults, and vituperation. This is all expected and is a standard tactic to prevent the information from seeing the light of day. And it is unfortunately almost always effective. Really? The victim card? :rolleyes: Everything you’ve used to support whatever claim you’re plodding inexorably towards has already been tried and debunked, many times over. It may be new and important to you but not to most people here. If it’s being dismissed as so much racist garbage, that’s because it is. If you have anything new to offer, let’s have it. If not, well, don’t let the door hit ya. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/299 "2013-09-20T20:23:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > That’s a lie. You can’t accuse other posters of lying in this forum. Please don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/300 "2013-09-20T20:27:48Z")
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