# Questions about Hitler and Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of Europe's Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168 "2013-09-18T19:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/481 "2013-09-23T00:02:28Z")
“Bones and teeth are oozing up out of the mud!” “That’s perfectly normal.” “Goddamnit man, those are human bones and human teeth. Dead human beings were put into the ground right under our feet!” “Nope. The ground oozes teeth and bones all the time for no reason at all. It’s totally unremarkable.” ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/482 "2013-09-23T00:04:17Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > And of course there are 1000s of eyewitnesses, but the USHMM has obvious pathological liar Abraham Bobma as its featured eyewitness, and the Stephen Spielberg movie of holocaust eyewitnesses features obvious nut case Irene Zizblatt. And my challenge to examine the testimony of ANY Jewish eyewitness anyone wants to produce goes unanswered. Here you go… eye witnesses aplenty. Isadore Helfing, Treblinka eye witness: > **[Isadore Helfing Treblinka Survivor. Selected extracts from the USHMM...](http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/survivor/helfing.html)** > > Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team Hershl Sperling, Treblinka eye witness: > **[Hershl Sperling testimony on the Treblinka Death Camp-...](http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/survivor/sperling.html)** > > Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team Michal Podchlebnik, Chelmno eye witness: > **[Chelmno Survivor Michal Podchlebnik - www.HolocaustResearchProject.org](http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/survivor/podchlebnik.html)** > > Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team There’s plenty of others there… ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/483 "2013-09-23T00:08:45Z")
Isn’t this Rule 1 in the basic conspiracy theorist mindset? If I knock 1 leg out from this theory, the whole thing falls down. The problem is that there’s a million legs. Knocking one rotten leg down leaves 999,999 perfectly good legs. On the other hand, we’ve got **Gack** ’s pet theories, which rely only on a set of shaky, creaky legs placed one on top of the other. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/484 "2013-09-23T00:43:02Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > Treblinka - someone seeing bones and teeth wash up in the rain is not an indication of a Nazi mass grave. Strange, that doesn’t happen where I live. What is it an indication of? A landslide in a churchyard? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/485 "2013-09-23T00:45:06Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Isn’t this Rule 1 in the basic conspiracy theorist mindset? > > If I knock 1 leg out from this theory, the whole thing falls down. > > The problem is that there’s a million legs. Knocking one rotten leg down leaves 999,999 perfectly good legs. Legs? Hell, this has a pyramid base and Gack is trying to knock pebbles off the top. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/486 "2013-09-23T01:19:10Z")
**Gack,** I challenge you to read the links in **coremelt’s** post #482, especially the one by Hershl Sperling. Do not skip a single word. If you can read these without emotion, you must be non-human. Do you think these witnesses are lying? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/487 "2013-09-23T02:17:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Bones and teeth are oozing up out of the mud!” > “That’s perfectly normal.” > “Goddamnit man, those are human bones and human teeth. Dead human beings were put into the ground right under our feet!” > “Nope. The ground oozes teeth and bones all the time for no reason at all. It’s totally unremarkable.” “Lovely mass grave; beautiful plumage.” ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/488 "2013-09-23T02:25:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Of course, it was the Soviet “discovery” of the Katyn site that prompted the Nazis to begin destroying the evidence of their actions. The Katyn massace of 1000s of Polish elite was carried out by the NKVD, the mass graves were discovered by the Nazis after they pushed the Soviets out of the area. The Nazis invited a international team of forensics experts to oversee the excavation of the site while the war was ongoing. The Vinnitsa mass grave was also excavated by the Nazis with an international team of forensics experts while the war was ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/489 "2013-09-23T02:40:39Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The Katyn massace of 1000s of Polish elite was carried out by the NKVD, the mass graves were discovered by the Nazis after they pushed the Soviets out of the area. > The Nazis invited a international team of forensics experts to oversee the excavation of the site while the war was ongoing. Yes but so what? The three massacres you’ve linked, bodies were buried in mass graves. They were not cremated and ashes were not scattered. They were just buried and left to rot. They have zero relevance when discussing sites where active attempts were made to destroy evidence by cremating corpses and disposing of ashes by dumping it rivers or spreading the ashes over a large area as was done at Treblinka. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/490 "2013-09-23T02:50:52Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Quoting myself to point out that this request for the mystery suppressed material has been completely ignored. Still waiting… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/491 "2013-09-23T03:03:16Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The Katyn massace of 1000s of Polish elite was carried out by the NKVD, the mass graves were discovered by the Nazis after they pushed the Soviets out of the area. I am aware that the Katyn massacre was a Soviet action. That is why I put “discovered” in quotes. I did forget that it was the Nazis, themselves, who discovered the site. My point remains, however: after Katyn was exposed, the Nazis began taking steps to hide their activities. They seem to have been successful in hiding them from you, but the rest of us are aware of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/492 "2013-09-23T03:08:45Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > **Gack,** I challenge you to read the links in **coremelt’s** post #482, especially the one by Hershl Sperling. Do not skip a single word. If you can read these without emotion, you must be non-human. Do you think these witnesses are lying? I’ve read the first two accounts and am skeptical of both for the following reasons … 1. Each reports that 8000 - 10000 were killed per day, and the total quickly reaches into the hundreds of thousands, and yet there are no bodies that have been found. The story is that for a time they were buried and then dug up and cremated, but the account in Wiernik is not credible. I don’t believe there is a credible account. 1. From wiki … T_he camp was operated by 20–25 SS overseers (Germans and Austrians) and 80–120 Wachmänner guards from the east, trained at Trawniki._ Sperling writes … _But on average ten thousand people per day are murdered in Treblinka_ Helfing’s writes … \*The 8,000 people would be gone in two hours? Yeah\* So, the Nazis plus Ukranians are outnumbered 100 to 1, and that is not counting the Jewish residents of camp, and yet they manage to kill, bury and/or burn 10,000 people per day. The numbers seem very unlikely to me. 1. Martin Gilbert is an esteemed British historian … \*According to Martin Gilbert in his book, Holocaust Journey, the gas chambers at Treblinka utilized carbon monoxide from diesel engines. \* There is a problem with this, unlike gasoline engines, diesel engines do not produce appreciable CO, and in fact are commonly used in mines … see for example … [https://www.osha.gov/dts/hazardalerts/diesel\_exhaust\_hazard\_alert.html](https://www.osha.gov/dts/hazardalerts/diesel_exhaust_hazard_alert.html) So, for these reasons I am skeptical of both Sperling’s and Helfing’s accounts. I’m not going to pursue this right now because I want to concentrate on the Chelmo, etc., mass graves and that will take some time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/493 "2013-09-23T03:11:00Z")
I keep waiting to hear the refrain “No holes no Holocaust!” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/494 "2013-09-23T03:28:25Z")
As usual Gack is ignoring what it was found in Treblinka. And number 2 and 3 were debunked already: [http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/reinhard-faq-07.html](http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/reinhard-faq-07.html) > [@](#): > > Those who deny the Holocaust have claimed that fumes from a diesel engine are not toxic enough to kill people. (This claim is made with regard to the death camp of Treblinka - see Section 4.1.3 for the rulings from the German Treblinka trials. In other death camps, gasoline engines were used. The method of killing was simple - people were crammed into the gas chambers, and the exhaust of powerful engines was pumped into them). > > In a closed chamber, of course diesel fumes will kill. There was actually a study on this in the British Journal of Industrial Medicine (Prattle, 47-55.) The researchers ran a few experiments in which various animals were exposed to diesel fumes, and studied the results. > > In the experiments, the exhaust of a small diesel engine (568 cc, 6 BHP) was connected to a chamber 10 cubic meters (340 cubic feet) in volume, and the animals were put inside it. In all cases, the animals died. Death was swifter when the intake of air to the engine was restricted, as this causes a large increase in the amount of carbon monoxide (CO) that is emitted. (See, for instance, Diesel Engine Reference Book, by Lilly, 1985, p. 18/8, where it is stated that at a high air/fuel ratio the concentration of CO is only a few parts per million but for lower ratios (25:1) the concentration of CO can rise up to 3,000 ppm. It is very easy to restrict the air intake - the British researchers did so by partially covering the air intake opening with a piece of metal.) > > Even in cases where the CO output was low, the animals still died from other toxic components - mainly, irritants and nitrogen dioxide. > > Now, the diesel engines used in Treblinka were much larger - they belonged to captured Soviet T-34 tanks. These tanks weighed 26-31 tons (depending on the model) and had a 500 BHP engine (compared to a mere 6 BHP in the British experiments). The volume of the extermination chambers in Treblinka is, of course, a factor. But the chambers’ volume is about 60 cubic meters (2040 cubic feet); this is 6 times more than those in the British experiments, but the difference in the size of the engines is much larger than a factor of 6. > > It should be remembered that what matters in CO poisoning is not the concentration of CO, but the ratio of CO to oxygen. In a small, gas-tight room, crammed full of people, oxygen levels drop quickly, thus making death by CO poisoning faster. As noted, other toxic components in the fumes further accelerate mortality. Less people would make it less likely that that kind of chamber would work “properly”. And I have seen references that it is possible that the ones testifying on the kind of engine were mistaken. And his point on the diesel engines used in mines is moronic, those engines work in ventilated areas and miners are not stuffed in a single area with the engine running, the transports move the workers constantly around the tunnels. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/495 "2013-09-23T03:30:42Z")
**Gack** certainly is efficient at demanding cites and then finding them “not credible.” > [@Gack](#): > > I’m not going to pursue this right now because I want to concentrate on the Chelmo, etc., mass graves and that will take some time. You could start by spelling it correctly. It’s Chelmno. ---
**Author:** ![Athabasca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Athabasca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athabasca)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/496 "2013-09-23T03:47:10Z")
I thought we were supposed to ignore the troll Gack, and instead, y’all are engaging the imp. Tomndebb, it sounds to me Gack has crossed the line amply. What gives? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/497 "2013-09-23T03:53:38Z")
> [@Athabasca](#): > > I thought we were supposed to ignore the troll Gack, and instead, y’all are engaging the imp. Tomndebb, it sounds to me Gack has crossed the line amply. What gives? Don’t accuse other posters of trolling in this forum, and don’t complain about the moderation unless you’re in ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/498 "2013-09-23T03:54:03Z")
First off, it is a violation of the rules to call another poster a troll outside The BBQ Pit, so do not do this again. Second, while both Marley and I have noted behavior that resembled trolling, Gack has tended to avoid the specific actions that caught our attention since we pointed them out. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish betweena True Believer and a troll, but we prefer to err on the side of caution. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/499 "2013-09-23T11:10:58Z")
I’d have finished my PhD much quicker if I were able to take evidence I didn’t like and just say “I don’t think that’s a credible experiment.” Instead, they do this pesky thing where we have to explain WHY we think we can discount a specific result, and we actually have to have a good reason beyond “I reckon that number ain’t right”. Also, we’re still waiting for all of those piles of information that have been suppressed by the powers that be that Gack claims he’s just desperately eager to share with the world. Still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/500 "2013-09-23T12:12:18Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Way to avoid YOUR OWN original point. > > You point out you were “confident” real bodies behave a certain way when cremated. > > So where’s the proof? Where’s the evidence? > . I confess I have no idea of what you are talking about, unless it is Blobel’s account of the cremation process. And, coincidentally, I realize that I do have a can of gas in my garage for the mower. However, if you read the Blobel quote is says and ‘inflammable material’ was placed over the bodies, which I read as flammable material, but it does not say what the material is. So I went to the site to review it and the page is down. So, before I proceed I will need to find another copy of the confession, hopefully in German, and hopefully someone can translate what the material is. One of the other accounts I just read says that the bodies were stacked, gasoline was poured on, the fire was lit and that was that. That is effectively the same as Blobel’s description. I also realized that I can do the experiment even with gasoline as Blobel describes covering the bodies with inflammable(sp) material, but not adding it, so I can pull that off. I plan to use a cut up chicken to approximate packed bodies. Science in action. I’ll bet $100 the chicken is barely touched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168.md?page=26)