# Questions about Hitler and Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of Europe's Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168 "2013-09-18T19:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/41 "2013-09-18T23:31:51Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Your own link contains the following quote: > “I saw with my own eyes how thousands of Jews were gassed daily and thrown by the hundreds into pits where Jews were burning,” he said. “I saw how little children were killed with sticks and thrown into the fire,” he continued. Blood flowed in gutters, and “Jews were thrown in and died there”; more were taken off trucks and cast alive into the flames… The two pages of testimony, in a file randomly plucked off a shelf, are among millions of documents held by the International Tracing Service, or ITS, an arm of the International Committee of the Red Cross. > > I don’t think you are leading us to the conclusion you think you are… That is testimony, which we will get to. The article documents that 35,000 died at Belsen at the end of the war due to typhus. From the article … “She (Anne Frank - g) was on one of the last trains to Germany before the Nazi occupation of Holland crumbled. Six months later, aged 15, she died an anonymous death, one of some 35,000 casualties of typhus that ravaged the Bergen-Belsen camp.” How many Jews were killed in the holocaust? It seems me reasonable to examine the evidence before reaching a conclusion. So, I’ll examine the photographic, the physical, the documentary, and testimonial evidence. We are starting with photographic evidence. just like Oprah did. If you know of any, let’s see it. Tomorrow I’ll try to summarize the photographic evidence and move on to physical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/42 "2013-09-18T23:33:02Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > We are starting with photographic evidence. just like Oprah did. If you know of any, let’s see it. Tomorrow I’ll try to summarize the photographic evidence and move on to physical evidence. Please do. You are sure to provide many novel photographs and other types of evidence which no one on this web site has seen before. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/43 "2013-09-18T23:42:47Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > First we must examine the evidence. In a murder case we start with the bodies and the second thing to consider is the murder weapon. This is not accurate. Many murder cases begin with the disappearance of a person or more than one person. Certainly, it is easier to prosecute a murder case when one has a dead body with evidence of a hostile cause of death. However, one need not have the body available to begin the investigation, nor is the body required for a trial. Multiple investigations by separate, independent groups in 1945 and 1946 found that between 5.65 and 5.85 million Jews had “disappeared” from Europe between 1940 and 1945. (The number has been rounded, in popular culture, to 6 million, but the original estimates exceeding 5.5 millions were firmly established.) That was sufficient cause to begin an investigation into their murders. There was ample evidence from eyewitnesses, records kept by the Nazis, and human remains to establish that large numbers of Jews were murdered by _Einsatzgruppen_ in the early years of the war and the various extermination camps established beginning in 1942. Now, while I am sure that you will try to play games with the other evidence as this thread proceeds, your initial claim is starkly wrong and we are free to dismiss the rest of your silliness based on your initial error. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/44 "2013-09-18T23:43:22Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Please do. You are sure to provide many novel photographs and other types of evidence which no one on this web site has seen before. I’ve already linked to all the photos I will discuss. The Oprah link, the Yad Vashem link, and perhaps also the Belsen link which I’ll repeat … [http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/SurvivorsPhotos.asp?index=0](http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/SurvivorsPhotos.asp?index=0) If you know of other photographic evidence, let’s see it. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/45 "2013-09-18T23:49:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Now, while I am sure that you will try to play games with the other evidence as this thread proceeds, your initial claim is starkly wrong and we are free to dismiss the rest of your silliness based on your initial error. If you look closely I think you’ll also discover I misspelled Guatemela. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/46 "2013-09-18T23:53:23Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > If you look closely I think you’ll also discover I misspelled Guatemela. By which statement you seem to be saying that you really do not care about the actual discussion. That, in turn, would lead me to believe that you are simply trolling. If you want to continue, you would be well advised to not give any of the staff a reason to believe that you are just posting to yank chains. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/47 "2013-09-18T23:54:44Z")
Ok explain these WARNING NSFW and VERY GRAPHIC [http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/08/article-2185315-00435ABA00000258-415\_472x682.jpg](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/08/article-2185315-00435ABA00000258-415_472x682.jpg) [http://www.templeshalomoxfordfl.org/images/Holocaust%20Add%201c%20Nazis%20Shooting%20Jews.jpg](http://www.templeshalomoxfordfl.org/images/Holocaust%20Add%201c%20Nazis%20Shooting%20Jews.jpg) [http://www.memorialdelashoah.org/upload/minisites/ukraine/images/expo1\_01\_l.jpg](http://www.memorialdelashoah.org/upload/minisites/ukraine/images/expo1_01_l.jpg) [http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Babi\_Yar\_Holocaust.jpg](http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Babi_Yar_Holocaust.jpg) [http://www.datasync.com/~davidg59/eins2.gif](http://www.datasync.com/~davidg59/eins2.gif) [http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/images/350px-Lidice\_massacred\_men.jpg](http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/images/350px-Lidice_massacred_men.jpg) So I think we are done with photos **Gack** What is next? **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/48 "2013-09-18T23:57:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > By which statement you seem to be saying that you really do not care about the actual discussion. That, in turn, would lead me to believe that you are simply trolling. > > If you want to continue, you would be well advised to not give any of the staff a reason to believe that you are just posting to yank chains. > > [/Moderating] I will henceforth stick strictly to the subject. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/49 "2013-09-18T23:57:14Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > We are starting with photographic evidence. just like Oprah did. If you know of any, let’s see it. Tomorrow I’ll try to summarize the photographic evidence and move on to physical evidence. I was ready to dismiss this for what it really is – anti-semitic trolling masquerading as pseudo-intellectual glurge. But since Oprah will be presenting photographic evidence, well, this I gotta see. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/50 "2013-09-19T00:02:28Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > So I think we are done with photos **Gack** What is next? > > **Capt** Why would we be done with photos? It would be informative to know the provenance of each of the photos you posted. Who took them, where, when, who is pictured. I realize that precise information is most likely not available to you, but, it would be interesting to know. For purposes of discussion why not pick 1 or 2 photos and discuss their significance? ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/51 "2013-09-19T00:03:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I was ready to dismiss this for what it really is – anti-semitic trolling masquerading as pseudo-intellectual glurge. But since Oprah will be presenting photographic evidence, well, this I gotta see. Check out the link in my first post in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/52 "2013-09-19T00:05:43Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > No one who died in the camps did anything to deserve it. Most of the people who died in the war, many more civilians than soldiers, did not do anything to deserve it. What did the people in Hiroshima do to deserve it? Etc. So are you saying the same thing was going on in Germany? Are you saying that Germany was in a war with the Jews? And that what was happening in Auschwitz and other camps were essentially a form of combat between two sides in a war? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/53 "2013-09-19T00:20:21Z")
Like if Photographic evidence was not used in the original Nuremberg trial. > **[Holocaust Encyclopedia](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/en)** > > The Holocaust was the state-sponsored systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jews by Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945. Start learning today. > [@](#): > > Further visual documentation came from the US Army Signal Corps, which, in the course of photographing and filming American operations in World War II, also played a crucial role in documenting evidence of Nazi atrocities and the Holocaust. Many of the early still and moving pictures of newly liberated Nazi concentration camps were taken by Army photographers such as Arnold E. Samuelson and J Malan Heslop. A number of these images were later transmitted to news agencies in the United States and other countries, where they helped to inform the world about the horrors of Nazism and the plight of concentration camp prisoners. > > On November 29, 1945, the IMT prosecution introduced an hour-long film titled “The Nazi Concentration Camps.” When the lights came up in the Palace of Justice all assembled sat in silence. The human impact of this visual evidence was a turning point in the Nuremberg trial. It brought the Holocaust into the courtroom. > > Eyewitness testimony from both perpetrators and survivors laid the foundation for much of what we know about the Holocaust, including details of the Auschwitz death machinery, atrocities committed by the Einsatzgruppen and other SS and police units, the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, and the original statistical estimate of six million murdered Jews. Many people directly involved in the killing program died before the end of the war, but the Allies interrogated many of those who were still alive in preparation for the trial. None of the perpetrators denied the Holocaust. Most just tried to deflect their responsibility for the killings. > > Three key perpetrators gave evidence directly related to the Holocaust: Hermann Göring, the highest official of the Nazi state tried at Nuremberg, testified openly and frankly about the persecution of German Jews from the rise of the Nazi party to power in 1933 until the outbreak of war in 1939; Otto Ohlendorf testified directly about his unit, Einsatzgruppe D, killing 90,000 Jews in the southern Ukraine in 1941; and the commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Hoess, testified frankly about the gassing of more than a million Jews at the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center during the war. All three claimed that they carried out the legitimate orders of the state. > > While the testimony of perpetrators is often chilling in its frankness about the killing program, testimony from survivors, then and today, is often the best antidote to Holocaust denial. Holocaust survivors directly experienced Nazi genocidal policies. Their testimony is personal, immediate, and, for this reason, compelling. Survivors like Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier who testified at Nuremberg about her experiences at Auschwitz, and Elie Wiesel, who, after the war, wrote the book Night about his deportation from Hungarian-occupied Transylvania to Auschwitz in 1944, provide the human element. Such witnesses convey what it felt like to be the target of genocide. > > Taken together, the documents, photographs, film, and perpetrator and survivor testimony at postwar trials provided an inescapable and undeniable documentation of the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/54 "2013-09-19T00:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > It would be informative to know the provenance of each of the photos you posted. Who took them, where, when, who is pictured. I realize that precise information is most likely not available to you, but, it would be interesting to know. That would be documentary evidence, which you said you don’t want to deal with yet. Deal with the photos, or accept discussion about documents, your choice. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/55 "2013-09-19T00:25:34Z")
Why is everyone letting Gack derail the thread and dictate what sorts of evidence in what order should be considered? Gack, layout your answers to the below in one post, or link to websites that explain your views in one post. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Did the Nazis try to wipe out Europe’s Jews? > > Did they kill any of Europe’s Jews? If so, roughly how many do you think they killed? > > Do you believe Hitler’s hatred of the Jews was justified? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/56 "2013-09-19T00:27:38Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > Why would we be done with photos? > > It would be informative to know the provenance of each of the photos you posted. Who took them, where, when, who is pictured. I realize that precise information is most likely not available to you, but, it would be interesting to know. > > For purposes of discussion why not pick 1 or 2 photos and discuss their significance? In the interest of saving everybody a lot of time and before you are banned by the board moderators for this particularly vile poison you appear to enjoy drooling out by your plodding lecturing style, can you summarize in a few concise sentences what you hope to gain by this. Because you must know by now that you have not a prayer in hell of convincing a single person with a functioning brain that the Holocaust was something other than what it was - a systematic murder of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and others deemed inferior by Hitler & Co. So let’s have it. Vomit your bile. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/57 "2013-09-19T01:08:04Z")
From the University of Missouri KC Archives A bit of the testimony of Otto Ohlendorf Commander of Einsatzgruppe D from the Nuremburg Trials [http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Ohlentestimony.html](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Ohlentestimony.html) TL/DR Clear and precise testimony of how his command executed 90,000 Jews and Soviet Officials **Capt** **Gack** are you saying that the photos I linked to earlier are fakes? **C** ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/58 "2013-09-19T01:34:00Z")
During World War II there were about 120,000 Japanese-Americans confined to internment camps. Of that total [1,862 – about 1.5% – died while in the camps](http://home.comcast.net/~chtongyu/internment/camps.html). For that matter, Japan held 27,465 U.S. soldiers as prisoners of war. The Japanese were not known for humane treatment of prisoners, and[11,107 died while in captivity](http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/usprisoners_japancomp.htm). That’s about 40%. Now let’s look at official German figures (not any of those apologist estimates!) Dachau held about 206,000 prisoners during 1933-1945 and had [31,000 registered deaths.](http://search.ancestry.com/search/db.aspx?dbid=1371) For [Auschwitz](http://jewise.wordpress.com/2010/12/29/official-german-record-of-prisoners-in-auschwitz-concentration-camp-may-1940-through-december-1944/) the figures (1940-1944) are 334,785 prisoners and 109,215 recorded deaths. That’s about 26% – closer to the Japanese percentage than the Americans. My question is, if the Nazis weren’t \*trying \*to kill their prisoners, how could they possibly have tolerated a death rate more than 17x the Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/59 "2013-09-19T01:45:11Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Why is everyone letting Gack derail the thread and dictate what sorts of evidence in what order should be considered? Gack, layout your answers to the below in one post, or link to websites that explain your views in one post. I agree that the issue of photographic evidence seems like a sidetrack. Any lack of photographs can show either that crimes didn’t occur or that crimes weren’t photographed. So the number of photographs seems like a moot point. Same thing with a typhus epidemic that may have killed 35,000 people at Belsen. It doesn’t really say anything about the overall question of genocide. To me, the most damning evidence against the Nazis is that in a twelve year period approximately twelve million people died in the Nazi camps. The fact that they were alive in 1933 and dead in 1945 is pretty hard to refute - twelve million people don’t just get misplaced even in the middle of a war. And that many people don’t die in that amount of time just from general neglect - there has to be an intentional program of killing people. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/60 "2013-09-19T02:45:57Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > **Gack** are you saying that the photos I linked to earlier are fakes? > > **C** I haven’t said anything about the photos. I have not examined them closely. I have asked you to discuss what you know about 1 or 2 of them and then I will examine them and give them some thought. Also, to answer the the question - why examine the photographic evidence first?, it is the first evidence that I saw of the holocaust. It is the evidence that most persons are familiar with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168.md?page=4)